Robin: Real quick here, because we have an amazing guest on the episode. Let's get through the anecdotal chitchat as fast as possible. Brian, have you started a one-man caravan? No, didn't figure that. Okay. Moving right along. Yeah. Yeah. I started it. I wouldn't say I got very far.

Brian: Define start. Um, like four pages. He's, he's still, he's still at the party. Okay. Gotcha. I just, like, I, like, I re I started it months ago and then today I'm like, Oh, I should read this. And, uh, and then my wife needed something and off I went. So anyway, I'll get it.

Robin: Hey, so get ready. I'm going to be texting you a lot.

Brian: Please do.

Robin: Because here's my anecdotal chitchat. Tomorrow, Monday, I have to ride to Harbor freight an hour and a half away to get the screw removal tools that you let you suggested I get so I can remove the fastener from my engine so that on Tuesday I can ride to San Antonio and pick up the headlamps for the bike, which were just jacketed by some guy who pulled into the park next to us and just happens to do custom work. So he's going to put this eighth inch of jacketed protective gel on the headlamps. This is my fourth set of headlamps in 95,000 miles. So it's like this rubberized sort of Sorbo thing type coating. And that's going to protect my headlights in the future. And then after that on Wednesday, my eBay fender arrives and I got to pull the fender extender off the old, clean it up, put it on the new so that on Thursday, when the new carbon fiber fairing parts arrive, the headlights can go into that before it goes back on in the front and gets pieced back together. Meanwhile, that's the same day. I'll be getting some M5 by 20 Miller coupling nuts. They're going to distance my tail tidy enough that the signals aren't touching the luggage because it's a design flaw. It says four luggage equipped bikes, and yet the signals are just banging on my luggage. So that Friday I can take a deep breath. Saturday I can work on the wiring all day and get my SAE to USB at the handlebars, three strand luggage lights for the running and brake lights, 95,000 miles on this bike, just trying to celebrate it before the a hundred K mark. And it's slowly just becoming a paperweight. That's my anecdotal chitchat. How are you doing Brian?

Brian: I'm doing well. I'm doing some boring work on my minivan. So nobody needs to know about that. I do have work I need to do on my motorcycle. Like I just got a bunch of stuff done on the vintage Suzuki. The KLR doesn't need anything because it's just rough and tough and doesn't need nobody for nothing. And the Yamaha has some like valve check, you know, just the heavy maintenance, but I'm saving that for like the deepest, darkest, worst pit of despair. Somewhere around February, January, I'm saving that because I want to savor it. I want to savor that work. I want to have the heater on. I want to be able to focus on it and think about what it's for. And so I'm just going to save that for a couple of months. But yeah, it's cold as hell here. It's it's it just sucks.

Robin: All right. That's great. Really happy to hear it now. Anecdotal chit chat check. Now to introduce, it is our honor and pleasure to have the one and only Joanne Don of gearchick.com with us today to make our podcast look halfway respectable. Let's see if we can do something fun here. Welcome Joanne.

Joanne: Thank you. You don't need me to be more respectable. I can tell you already are. I'm just here is decoration.

Robin: We're happy you're here.

Joanne: Thank you. Thank you. It's been a while since I've been on podcast, though. This is really great. I really miss doing these.

Robin: Me too.

Brian: Joanne, I'm going to hit you with a couple of questions that, yeah, we don't have anything approaching tradition here, but if we did, it would be something along lines of, so, uh, did you ride today? Nope.

Joanne: Oh, um, I did drive today. I do have a manual. So does that count? I'm a Wrangler, the closest I can get to writing right now. No, I haven't written in a while.

Brian: That's about, yeah, I think, I think I moved my motorcycle out of the way once today, but yeah, that, so yeah, that, that's a, that's not good. Well, yeah, I, we started asking that, uh, in the summer and it's, so we need to ask something different in the winter when the winter's coming around.

Joanne: Yeah, I have the same problem. It's cold.

Robin: If you're up North is like, so Brian, did you sulk today? Yeah. Did I just sit and wait for summer, you know, spring to happen today?

Brian: Yeah, I just, I wept in a corner. No, the, uh, uh, snowmobiling, uh, but see in Indianapolis, we're not far enough North to get any snow. So I have to go farther North to even have a shot at getting on a snowmobile. And that's just like, that's like methadone. It doesn't really, you know, it doesn't scratch the itch like, you know, the real heroin does.

Joanne: So it's just cold.

Brian: Yeah, it's just cold.

Joanne: Same.

Robin: What about ice biking?

Joanne: That doesn't sound, no, that sounds awful. You guys are crazy.

Robin: You two should argue. Brian loves arguments.

Joanne: I already argue with my husband. I don't need two other dudes to argue with. Okay, go on.

Brian: Yeah. I, I, like as someone said here, try my ice bike. Sure. Why not?

Joanne: But with like studs and everything.

Brian: Yeah, but I would probably just die immediately. I don't know.

Joanne: What are they like?

Brian: I don't know.

Joanne: No, I've seen videos and it looks terrifying. I don't know. People are crazy. I guess you need something to do when it's like zero degrees outside and that's better than being inside. I don't know. It looks scary to me.

Robin: It's something, a Minnesotan thing, anything, Minnesota, Wisconsin. Ice fishing. Like they've got probably, what is it where they do the horseback riding and the rifling and the targeting and the skiing.

Joanne: That's an Olympic event.

Robin: Yeah. Biathlon.

Brian: Yeah.

Robin: Biathlon, triathlon. Yeah. So they probably have one that's like ice fishing, whiskey drinking, ice biking.

Brian: Yeah. I think the whiskey drinking has a lot to do with, with how these things came apart and, or came up. Um, and, and yeah, like the, the, the spikes, I mean, you know, they're, there's like arms and legs that get cut off. I mean, it's, it can be, it can be bad. Um, but yeah, it'd be tough to say no. Someone said here, hop on. Uh, well, all right.

Joanne: Well, that's the worst that can happen. You could freeze to death or die trying. No. So kudos to those that enjoy these things.

Brian: So what, um, and, and I know people can go to gearchick.com, which is what I did. And so I know the answer somewhat, but, uh, what you've been riding lately, uh, when you, when you were able to ride, when you did get out and ride, what's in the garage anyway?

Joanne: So do you want me to tell people what Gearchick is?

Brian: Yeah. I, oh yes. We need to, yeah. We need to explain Gearchick a little bit better.

Joanne: I mean, I almost feel not good enough to even explain myself in that way. Cause I haven't been updating it or keeping up with it the way I used to. I used to be really religious about it and it was a weekly updating and writing and blogging and posting. And now it's like once every six months, I post an update to say I'm still here.

Robin: You're not alone. There's like you, like the inspiration, the articles I'm writing anymore are in the 2,500 word range. Wow. So I really have to arrive at big inspiration on a great ride to want to really.

Joanne: Post. Yeah. I started it back in 2005 or six. I always forget which year. And I really just started with a domain name. So I started the website as a way to communicate my frustration, but also share my learning about motorcycle gear, about technical and purpose, you know, functional motorcycle gear, because I started working at a, uh, at back then at KTM Aprilia, a victory dealership and Kimco scooters. So I started to learn about motorcycle, about selling them. Not so much, but gear I was really, I got a part-time job in the apparel department selling gear. So, um, it came with very little, you know, selling motorcycles. It was really like talk to the people who bought a motorcycle about gear, get them geared up, you know, with their purchase. So everything that I was learning about product, I wanted to share also because my own frustration of not finding the information that I was looking for as a female writer. So I started that website, just a domain name, a really bad HTML website that my husband taught me how to write. And then, um, cause he's a, he's a video audio web.

Robin: Did it have an advertisement for 5,000 free hours of AOL on there somewhere?

Joanne: No, it's not that old, but I did try some Google ads and failed miserably. So it just started with a basic blog. And I started with a very simple premise of I just started riding and I'm shopping for motorcycle gear as a woman. And this is, these are some reviews of some technical motorcycle gear that I want to share with you cause I really like them. So it's really evolved since then. I mean, honestly, it was just, it became more of the same over the last 15, 20, 18 years. I don't know, however many years. So it's just evolved to more reviews and just more mentioning of different product that I loved and I recommended cause I would buy it and use it or I'd buy it and hate it. Um, I was not sponsored by anybody, so I didn't get paid to post content and sure, I would get some free product every now and then from different brands who were like, here, you know, you love our gloves, so here's another pair. But there was no, I didn't have like real financial relationships with anybody. It was just, this is stuff I'm buying with my cool discount at the dealership. And then it just evolved. So it luckily was a vehicle for me to, um, get better and learn more about product for men and women. I mean, to be honest, I know more about men's gear than I do women's because I had to help five times as many women, men, excuse me, male riders than female riders because there are more men buying motorcycle gear in the shops. Um, and in general, right, the statistics are more men riding. So I actually know a lot more about men's product. And so all that knowledge and experience just kind of rolled together so that I could then go work full time in our industry selling apparel full time. So I ditched my office work and then just kind of rolled over to doing this now. So GearTick is still there and I leave it up, but I don't post too much of it. And it's really just a fun recreational site, but that's not my job job. So it doesn't pay my bills.

Robin: So you don't tell the lie the way I do. So what do you do, Robin? Well, I write for the motorcycle industry. I run a website and lead commercial motorcycle tours.

Joanne: Well, I mean, uh, I get to actually tell a little more truth because I do sell motorcycle gear for a living, so that's not a lie, but not through my website. The website is purely anecdotal and it's, there's a lot of history. So there's a lot of brands on there that I don't work for. You know, now I work for Revit Sport USA, so there is a lot of product there. I used to use from other companies all the time, a lot of our competitors. And I left, I leave it, you know, it's old product. And there's actually a lot of really old stuff that I have deleted.

Robin: I kid. But the fact is, is that I'm a web developer. You know, I love being in this industry. I love writing for the industry and I love the little bit of, you know, sometimes it supports my habit, so to speak, but in the end it's like I'm a web developer. And the rest, so that's the truth. That's the second answer I give when I have to look at the ground and look at my feet.

Joanne: I'm married to one, so I totally get it.

Brian: One thing I noticed is, uh, I love the, you've got this whole series. So you're short for short riders and the world needed that. The world really needs that. And, and you got the picture where you're kind of leaning off anyway. That's great. And it's also a lot of this stuff. It's worth keeping alive because is there a lot you need to add to it? Not really. It kind of goes through the really basic principles right there.

Joanne: I think so. Yeah. I mean, I definitely left that up. I wrote it like four or five years ago and it's because people were continually asking me these questions just in real life and on social media. They were messaging me and they, you know, I still get messages from people, particularly female writers. So, yeah, I, I just decided to add that as a resource because I was getting a lot of, I get a lot of weird questions about my experience, what I own, what I have and what I've done. There's a lot of questioning about, you know, what did you, what do you do? You know, how do you do that? And what, why do you have that? And, you know, when did you buy this bike? And did you do this? Did you lower this? Did you do that? So I wanted to have it all in one place of just all the stuff I tell people already. And I just got lazy writing it all the time in email form. I got tired. Yeah.

Robin: I have a question for you as the expert, and this is, this is catering to somebody who has brought this up several times. Sure. Ahmadie Piper in Colorado. She always wants to know about the turquoise hot purple thing.

Joanne: Wait, did you say Armanet?

Robin: Yes.

Joanne: Okay. I was like, is it that the only one Armanet that I know of in this industry? So I was like, it has to be her. Cool.

Robin: She's hosted on this podcast for a good month and a half or so on a, on the study during some seasons. Cool. She is one person who is vehemently against this constant onslaught of turquoise, hot, purple, purple, hot, purple, coy, coyceral, you know, it's Can we get, you know, so you immediately on your site, I don't know if this is still available, but I'm looking at the perforated women's glove, black gauntlet, sturdy, strong, probably track worthy.

Joanne: Yeah.

Robin: Soft leather. Phone, you know, it's like these kinds of things. You've probably had firsthand witness the availability of such and the limited availability of such things.

Joanne: Yes. The turquoisey purpley thing is, is a constant struggle in our industry. And it's a constant topic conversation among not only consumers, but also manufacturers like the company I work for. It's, it's really difficult. I find as a consumer, because well, now that I've seen it on both sides, it's actually fascinating because there's a whole level, a whole layer of that the consumer never sees or understands, which is business and it's business. And so what's very difficult to, I think, convey, but also make change and impact are those choices because there are still, as we all know, a vast majority of male riders who run our industry, especially apparel. There are no, as far as like, there are smaller businesses where a lot of women in the past decade have started business like Atwild, you know, she started a company. She doesn't use anything like that in her product lines. You know, that's her point of view, but clearly it resonates. And I would say the same goes for the brand I work for. There is very little of that. There's minimal, there's like little sprinkles of like fluorescent pink, fluorescent red, you know, fluorescence.

Robin: We're completely independent. You can drop that name anytime you like, whatever you want to talk about.

Joanne: So, well, I, you know, I am not, it's, it's hard for me sometimes, well, what I'm trying to do is represent myself as gear check and that's so different than representing myself as retail experience manager, Revit USA. Cause I really do want to talk more about our product as a whole, like gear as a whole in general. Like this question you're just asking about is like color. Um, because I definitely want people who are listening to your podcast, who just have questions about motorcycle gear, like I want to help that person. And I still strive to do that. So just spending this time with you, I want it to be really focused on just these general kinds of questions that I, as a consumer, I'm also frustrated with.

Robin: And so get to work, Brian.

Joanne: So yeah, I want to definitely just talk about anything related to gear, just as it relates to anybody and everybody, regardless of a brand that they choose. Um, but to Armanee's point, those colors are driven by male points of view, but here's the other thing. They are also driven by female points of view because they are buying them. But it's a catch 22 because if this is the only choice I have between black and a turquoise, yeah, I'll probably pick turquoise cause I'm sick of black. So it's like, you're kind of forced to purchase. A lot of women are forced to purchase those colors cause there's no other option.

Brian: Well, that's exactly what happened to my wife. Right. She could hated like the pink couldn't, you know, you, you had to, she hated the pink and then finally ended up with like lavender and baby blue stuff.

Joanne: I mean, it's, it's still, yeah. I mean, it's still a choice though, right. To do that lighter color than black me, I'm black, like my soul is dark. And so I like dark colors. Like I would wear black 24, seven year round. And I, but I don't do that because I, I just, I mean, I like it, but honestly it gets old, like me personally wearing black all the time. I do get tired of it. So I do love black, but I don't live in black all the time. And for my gear, it's the same thing. I do like black. Um, but I don't want it to be a hundred percent black. Like, that's why I love Revit so much because they always would pipe in some red or they'd pipe in a silver with the black, um, you know, still, you know, clean, but a little pop of color. And that's what, that's my aesthetic. And I do like white sometimes I do like white and black, but I'm, I actually don't want. Pink. I don't want bright colors. I read maybe like red is probably the only color I've let into my closet. Um, but the other thing, yeah, my gear closet, cause Revit does a lot of white and black and I, I love that to me, that's a great alternative of a little brighter, a little different flashy, but not crazy. But the other thing about the turquoise blue purple thing is there are certain brands who cling to it. That's all they know. That's, they know it works. Girl pink, right? It's like, they have a formula. They sell to certain, you know, there are certain, uh, I think, groups of people who love that and they should love it and they get to love it. So it should never be disdain for the female customer. Like we should never, ever be like, Oh, you're terrible. Why do you like this color? It's because you get to like whatever color you want and it should never. Right. I get to like black. She likes blue, whatever.

Robin: If you weren't here, Brian and I get flat out mean to demographics sometimes just downright angular mean from, you know, a nosedive mean, but you're here, so we're going to keep the whole balance factor in play. And it's like, yes, if somebody wants to buy that product, shouldn't they have access to it?

Joanne: Exactly. Like some people like their bright green Kawasaki branded jacket because it matches their cool new ZX six and they love it and that's great. But that should not be representative of the entire population of people riding Kawasaki ZX sixes, right? Hey, there are people who love it, but not every Kawasaki ZX six rider wants that green jacket. And it, I would say is no different than females. If Armanet or whoever walks into the store and says, Oh my God, I love this turquoise in this black. It's my, it's, I love it. It's beautiful. I want it. Hell yeah, she should have it. And she should not be demonized for liking the pink or the blue or the purple. Where I have, where I take offense to this is when manufacturers or a lot of companies judge every female based on just this one, like, Oh, every woman loves it. No, a chunk of them do.

Robin: See, my mom does this. Robin likes this and his sister likes that. That was when I was four. Things change. Sometimes you want to mix it up.

Joanne: Everyone gets to like what they like, but it's for me, the offensive part. And I use the word offensive because it is making sweeping generalizations and that I think you can apply to anything in life. Anytime where, you know, anyone makes an assumption about you without just, Hey, talking to you first, that can be offensive. And, um, I don't like being marketed to with color, like blatant color, um, that, well, you're a woman, so here's why you need the pink one. Like, that's very different. That's very different from check out these cool new pants. I don't know. Check out this cool new thing. They come in four different colors. One of them happens to be pink. One happens to be black. One's gray and one's blue. You know, you get to pick one. So being marketed to like a five-year-old is where I have a problem.

Robin: Yeah. We need a metric system for gear.

Joanne: There is one. Starts at Euro 34.

Brian: There's several metric systems. Yeah.

Joanne: I mean, whatever, whenever, but yeah, color is, you know, it's hard. And then as you know, brands, there's business to be had. And when, you know, certain colors sell, it's like, it can be very challenging to take risks, try something different without, you know, losing a lot of your investment. It's, it's just challenging. And there's no answer. There's no like, well, you just do this. Like it doesn't work that way. And it's the same as in gear and other jobs and businesses too. So it's, it's, it's challenging. It's hard. And, but the good news is this. 20 years ago, the choices were like one hand. Now the choices are probably four hands. So there are more choices like with smaller businesses and then with, you know, big companies like the one I work for and there's new companies that have started in the last 10 years. And there's way more choices for women specifically, there are more. Um, and there's a lot more to be had and there's a lot more improvement to be made, but it's going to take time. And I try to remind women that this is a marathon, not a sprint. And if you were here 20 years ago, where I was trying to buy gear, trust me, you'd be thrilled with the choices that you see now that you seem to hate.

Robin: For being so well-informed. You're so much more patient than I am though. The whole marathon sprint thing, people know me. I'm not, I'm not patient and I want to see things better for everybody.

Joanne: I, they are better, but that's the thing. Like it's really, to me, a pessimist or optimist point of view that things they really are better case in point. There was no such thing as a female motorcycle legging that didn't exist. It was appalling. It was absurd. Like, are you crazy? Zero. Now you go on to sites like RevZilla. We have one, everybody has one. Everyone and their mom is making one. That's a huge shift and change. That is improvement right there. Maybe it's not the one you want, but it's happening. So I think it's, we all have to take a step back and look at, okay, well, what is great? Okay. Now what is crap? All right. What, what do we need to work on? But that's where I try to interject that or I can.

Brian: Nice. Nice. I, one, I have a detailed question and then I have another question.

Joanne: Yeah.

Brian: Yeah. Um, one of the things you cover on, so you're short, which I love, so you're short. Um, yeah. And you, you kind of talk about boots with, uh, boots with like higher soles or higher heels and so forth. Does that really help a lot or is it, you know, is it kind of a bandaid that works?

Joanne: How much time do you have? Okay. So I'm going to go, I'm trying to be really concise here. The answer is yes and no. So it's yes. When you need, um, a certain amount of extra height, like you need a little edge, you need just a little bit more. You need, you're just trying to get kind of to the next step where it doesn't work is when you really are starting in the wrong place. You're like going down the road down a one-way street in the wrong direction and you don't have GPS. You're going down the wrong road. So you're completely lost here. And that's for me, when people are purchasing motorcycles or riding motorcycles above and beyond their level of experience and above and beyond where they should really be and expecting a shoe to pick up the slack and something like, right, someone, and you know, a good example of that is my partner bought me this motorcycle and said, I should ride this one. Okay. What do you know about, do you know anything about this motorcycle? And then she looks over and goes, what is it? And has no idea what she's just got herself into. Oh, but it's really tall. I need a big boot. That's not how it works. So I, I think I write in there, I think on that page, I have somewhere written in there about skill experience and not, and, and, um, having realistic expectations of what you're trying to accomplish with this boot, whether it's a wedge or whether it's a lift. But if you made really bad choices and did not think it through, didn't take the time to really figure out and research what you're getting into this life and death kind of activity. And you expect a $200 shoe or boot to solve your problem. That's not going to work.

Robin: So would this apply to a British sport bike standard posture that has like way too many sensors that tend to fail. And after a while, you're the only person working on it, even though that person that bought the bike promised they would be the ones working on it.

Joanne: Correct. Just confirming.

Robin: Thank you. There's, there's some subtext there, Robin, right?

Joanne: Yeah, I think I understand it. Um, so it's, yeah, it, it, for me, it's, it's no, when your skills and experience are way too far back. Like it's, it's really more of a, of a support thing. Like it's, and for me, a prime example is, um, uh, when I bought this dual sport, when I rode this dual sport two years ago, I rode a different person's XT250 and they have it modified for them. Absolutely. As they should. Luckily, I was able to ride it because of my MX boots. And because I added a little lift inside, it just made it a little bit easier, but it was by no means like riding a Kawasaki Eliminator 125, like it doesn't, it wasn't like that, it was just, it was just, you know, it was like enough to add a little, just a little bit more stability and control. Um, but now, now that I'm on a stock XT250, which I bought from Armanet's school, it was one of the last used ones because that dealership is only an hour North of my house.

Robin: You're not talking about a TW, you're talking about an XT.

Joanne: XT250, it's a 2018. And it was one of the last ones that she's rotating out for her school. So, um, I got it used at a steal compared to what everybody else is charging. So now, now that I'm back on a stock one, it is so low. It's like riding. I feel like I'm riding a training bike, so I need to tweak it a little bit, just a little bit, I need to actually need a new seat is when I need a tall seat. So having the bliss in the boot that helped me as a new dual sport rider, attempting a new motorcycle type, cause I'm used to street riding. Um, and then anticipating terrain and issues, you know, but mainly stability. Nice. Nice.

Robin: Are you a MSF?

Joanne: I was, so I was certified from 2005 or six until 2015. And then I had to give it up because I moved to Philadelphia and I just could not maintain the certification. I couldn't maintain my weekend job and take on MSF work at this end part-time. So I gave it up.

Robin: I understand.

Joanne: But I loved it. I did. I loved it very much at the time I did it. And so maybe someday, maybe someday I'll go back to it.

Brian: But I already have too much work. Yeah. And maybe you and I can talk and Robin can just like go do something else for a cause I got really interested, like you were getting into dual sport riding. And I mean, you know, I, again, I was the same thing as a experienced street rider, blah, blah, blah, got into dual sport riding and I, you know, it was starting over, I mean, it was, you know, and it was just fascinating, you know? Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Maybe I ended up on the ground a lot and, and, uh, yeah, yeah, a lot.

Joanne: And on my arm, yeah.

Brian: You broke. Yeah. I think you broke your arm.

Joanne: Broke my arm.

Brian: Yeah.

Joanne: Um, but yeah, it's humbling. So humbling learning to dual sport and I love street riding still. And I love sport bikes still, but I do love this different type of motorcycle activity and like what the tall boot did for me was it literally allowed me to get the balls of my feet on the ground. That's it. It did not. And one left flat, assuming the terrain is like somewhat level. Um, that's all it did actually. So those boots, when I added inserts into my MX boots, I did get four inches off the flat ground with no shoes on, but it's a dual sport bike. It has to have clearance. You can't hop up baby heads if you don't have clearance, you know, you can't clear things. So it was fine, but that's all the edge it gave me. Like I didn't get like all this tremendous height from it. I just got enough to have a solid left foot and then two balls of my feet, which is where I'm comfortable.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, um, and one thing I've noticed also, it's more important that you have good traction on the boot. Like if your footing is toes only, um, a lot of these fashion boots hair are really slippery or they just have little lines. Sorry. You said fashion.

Joanne: Yeah. Right.

Brian: I mean, they basically, yeah, you need, you need like, you know, you need like big, ugly work boots, soles, you know, with like, you know, they can grip on the ground. Just wear a couple of ice picks. Yeah. Spikes.

Joanne: Well, I'm going to counter you and say, actually, no, you don't necessarily need that, that it's a lot like modern sport bike tires, right? You can have a contact patch on the track of what, I don't know, five inches long. I don't know. Like, right. You can barely have a contact patch and have so much traction in that tiny patch because of tire technology. Right. I mean, that's how everyone gets their elbows down. Right. And they're going a hundred. It's not exactly the same, but you can do a lot with just the ball of one foot. If you have a real motorcycle boot, not from Zappos, PSA, anything you buy in Zappos, it's never going to work for you. It doesn't work for you on a motorcycle, not the way you need it to. So pretty much, I mean, that's basically, that's a great, that's actually a great way to put it. I like that a lot. It's fascinating because if you also scroll, I think on that page, there's a photo of me, I'm like under a pop-up tent and I'm riding a friend's street triple, which is coincidentally the same year and color as mine. Yeah. And I've got one foot on the ground. I only have actually the left ball of my foot on the ground and I'm able to park. It's smooth though. So the parking lot is smooth because I'm rolling into a parking lot. I was actually able to park that with just one ball of foot because of that, because I wear track boots and track boots have a tremendous amount of traction.

Robin: Oh, you can sleep standing up in those things.

Joanne: Right.

Robin: That's true.

Joanne: So you don't even need big, thick soles. It's less, can be more if it's the right boot and the right technical product. So it's amazing how much you can get without a whole left foot. And that's where, I mean, a whole flat foot. And that's what I always try to tell people too, is you don't really need that unless you've made bad decisions.

Robin: Yeah. Well, unless you're in the mud, the future will say that you don't need that. There may be a right now as you get started and get comfortable with, there's a security about it.

Brian: Yeah. And if, and if you're, you know, and if you're in the mud and so forth, if you're, you know, if you're, if you're picking up a bike in the mud or pushing uphill, you know, but are you just coming up with a random example, Brian? Or yeah, just, just things I've heard about. I've certainly have never experienced and the other thing that I think every motorcyclist needs to understand is that a dedicated motorcycle boot is worth it every single time. Street riding, track riding, dual sport, off-road. Um, I, like for a long time, I just wore like whatever boots I was wearing for tromping around the farm or whatever. Kangos.

Robin: Makes a huge difference. Did you just have the pocket for money in the tongue? The tongue in the shoe had a pocket for like a dollar for your lunch. Going to elementary school. I had that. Sorry.

Joanne: You don't want those on your motorcycle. Actually, well, you probably, you definitely don't want them on your sport doing motorcycles. Um, but yeah, for, I mean, for me, especially with my MX boots, um, learning to ride, I did a dirt class. I did an MSF two day dirt class at DC dirt camp, highly recommend.

Brian: Nice.

Joanne: And, uh, we did the, you know, your standard MSF kind of dirt course layout in the grass field and you do, you know, drills and turning and stopping and all the basics, literal basics. Cause I've never had training. I never had any dirt training before two years ago. So learning. Even though, yeah, you don't necessarily need like full MX race boots for eight MSF dirt class. True. Right. You get away with sure. Some hiking boots, just like, um, on a base paved MSF course. Right. But for me being really new to dirt and being a street person and having absolutely no frame of reference for what proper dirt structure skills are supposed to be in technique, because I've ended up on the dirt on my sport bike, but not for fun. So, um, yeah. So I never knew what story there somewhere. Yes. Anyway, it's really bad. Yeah. I have a good one.

Robin: Let's do that. No, we got to hear it go on. So conclude first and then rewind and tell us that story.

Joanne: I'll conclude very quickly. So learning to ride in a proper off-road boot that, you know, and if you've ridden off-road boots, they're heavy, right? They're pretty heavy. They're really, really stiff on the bottom. Like it's like you're standing on cement, but you're not having that stability was instrumental for me to learn how to quickly stand up. Like it took seconds for me a minute for me to, to figure out, Oh, okay. I'm a stand and it feels good. And it feels great because I had this really firm support underneath my feet. I couldn't feel the pegs. The boots are so solid. They're, um, actually, uh, they're like full competition level off-road race boots. So they're not even just light, cheap, um, basic boots. So they had ankle support too, so that it made it feel like someone's hands were holding my feet on the foot pegs every time. So when I would get up on the pegs and stand and then counterweight and like pivot my weight, you know, to turn and do hard turns, it was really easy because it felt grounded. And so I didn't feel iffy or like, Oh crap, am I going to fall or my feet going to slip? It just felt like they were literally locked in kind of like bicycle shoes into a pedal, a bike pedal. So it felt great. And I think that's why I got so good at standing fast. Like I stood up quickly. I didn't hesitate. It didn't scare me. It will a little bit, but it didn't. I didn't have the uneasiness of, I don't know if I can do this because I was able to, I had such a strong ground and it's the same thing with sport bikes. So if you are wearing Vans and here you are barely touching the ground, right? And you're wearing sneakers that are soft that you could roll into a ball. How are you supposed to park your motorcycle? It weighs 400 pounds, right? Maybe 350. You can't back that up unless you are eight feet tall with flat feet. But when you're five, two, you have no choice, but to get off the motorcycle if you're wearing boots or shoes that do nothing for you. So that's when maybe a tall boot could help you. But as I said before, it never solves problems that you are making for yourself.

Robin: I challenge you to write an article to cater to somebody such as myself on a MX on a budget. So I'm not all in on dirt. I don't ride any dirt for real. And the truth of the matter is that if it's something I'd like to be able to do, I would like to have something that is up to your standards or Brian's standards. But the definition of budget has to belong to the reader, not what, you know, it's like, what is the best you can do inside of a, not just for boots, a 300 to $500 range that completes the outfit, puts it all together for the person who wants to go on a dual sport run and take the class with the MSF kind of thing.

Joanne: I think that's tough. I think with MSF, that's probably easier to do like taking your MSF class. And, but I, you know, I don't know. That's a tough one for me because knowing what a, a better off-road or adventure boot can do for you, knowing what they can do, it's really very challenging, I think.

Robin: That's the trick though, because if somebody's thinking about doing this, we run into this as writers all the time where it's like, if somebody's thinking about not getting any gear at all and still is going to end up doing these things, what can we do to shield them from their own ignorance? You know what I mean? This at least get this much, this is going to cut into your ankles and you're going to have blisters, but you should at least have that. So we, yeah. So when you're done, you still have feet.

Brian: Yeah. When you get a K, when you get a KLR on your leg, which happens frequently, you know, you want a good, you want a good solid boot down there.

Joanne: Now that's a really good point. I mean, there are a lot of tremendous benefits. I don't want to talk poorly, certainly about budget product. That's definitely not what I'm trying to say here.

Robin: Accessibility product is a big, heavy thing, right?

Joanne: Right. It's, it's, and it, you know what? It makes sense. Like when you're just, I'm, I did the same thing starting out in street gear. I didn't go all in and throw down $4,000. It was a slow climb and it's very normal. And I think in a perfect world, yeah, everybody would throw in all, all, all at once, but it's really hard to do that. But you're right. There are a lot of benefits to even just entry-level product over your closet. So that is absolutely an easy, that's definitely an easy article for me to write for sure.

Brian: All around here, flip-flops, cigarettes, no helmet, that, that seems to be the common riding gear.

Joanne: Yeah. And you're right from that, just if that's the starting point, absolutely. Even base level introductory gear offers so much more for the rider. Um, but yeah, you're right. That's now, that is a very easy thing to write. And I agree.

Brian: I think stuff like, uh, like, uh, I don't know if you remember Joe Rocket, um, Vicon, and even the built and the cycle gear stuff, honestly. Yeah. It's entry-level stuff. I think it has saved acres and acres of skin. It's saved a lot of lives because people will buy that stuff that would just. It's, it's not like people are throwing away their Revit or climb or whatever, and getting cheap stuff. Right. That their alternative is, is nothing or maybe a sweatshirt. And so I think that stuff has a role in it. And it, I, people are like, oh, it's horrible. It's horrible. Well, it might be, but it's, it's saved a lot of skin, I think.

Joanne: No, it totally has. It lowers the barrier to entry. It welcomes more people in. It's an inclusive way to bring people into the sport and gear up properly. Um, if they don't have enough yet, you know, to spend, and it gets them to a point where they can be safe and comfortable and then later, you know, invest more when they're ready or invest when they can, um, and no one should be excluded for that reason. Um, but you're absolutely right about that. It's no, it absolutely has saved a lot of people. It's really more about expectations. I think where people expect certain items to perform a certain way. Um, but that's not really what they're meant for. You know, or expecting something to do something that has absolutely nothing to do with, you know, what you're trying to accomplish. So that's where it gets messy. And that's the hard, I think that's the hard article to write.

Robin: All of a sudden this conversation is sounding more and more like my garage efforts right now than it is about this gear. Robin, the tool can't do what you're asking it to do. And you just broke another piece of the bike.

Joanne: It totally is. And I try when I used, when I was selling in a store environment every day, um, to people who, just like you said, Brian, about people who are used to wearing nothing and it's just normal, right? Maybe it's just the way that people ride around them, that the expectation is you don't really need much. And talking to people who don't, who are just entering the doors, right? They've just pulled up to the parking lot and they know nothing about what's behind these doors. It's really, for me, it was always important to, to say, Hey, Brian, what do you do for fun? Like, what are your other hobbies outside of motorcycling? What is that? Brian, give me like two, I don't know, two, three things you love to do. That's not motorcycle.

Brian: I can't think of anything. Nothing. It's not motorcycling. No, he's a writer.

Joanne: I don't know.

Brian: You write, that's about it. And yeah. And I would, for example, a good analogy would be tools. I like to work on things and fix things.

Joanne: That's a hobby, right? That's exactly, or you could be a chef. Like, what if you're really serious about cooking? Well, what's the difference between this $20 hand mixer and a KitchenAid? Huge difference if you're, if you're a chef. Right. Or whatever. If you're an electrician, there's a big difference between your Harbor Freight wrench that breaks in half and then, you know, a really nice snap on. Right. And it's the same thing. And finding those analogies for people is how I would always communicate the benefits of better product. That yes, if you buy this Harbor Freight wrench, yeah, it'll probably unscrew whatever you need to screw. Sure. That's its base job, but maybe, maybe outside of that, it may not. And, um, when I was living in Philly, my favorite analogy was handguns is guns because every person there carries or shoots guns, it's very real, you know, every, almost every person there.

Robin: I'm in Texas. So yeah, I hear you.

Joanne: Okay. So my husband is an enthusiast, hardcore. And so, and he writes, so he's perfect package. Um, so that would be my, like, especially selling an Arai, you know, a $600 Arai over a $300 HGC, I go, well, what's the difference between a Kimber 22 and an S&W, aren't they the same? No. You know, why? Tell me why, like, tell me, tell me why you as a handgun enthusiast or whatever enthusiast, why is that different? Well, here, now look at your, now look at this product. So just kind of explaining that very basic concept that these are not just because these are things you're not familiar with, doesn't mean they are what you expect them to be. Like, we're not in a mall. We're not at the Ross. We're not at a TJ Maxx here. We're in a very specific place with protective product, right?

Robin: Motorcycling is no matter what we do, it's an overblown cult.

Joanne: It's a fun one. And you can, you can get out, you can leave whenever you want, but yeah, there's a lot, yes, there's, and there's, you know, it's life and death. And I think people, um, really feel for their fellow motorcyclists and it becomes very personal, I think of like, if you don't wear this, I know exactly what's going to happen to you because I've seen it and I've experienced it, but it's really hard, right? To impose that on someone who's not ready yet.

Robin: And not to be confused with, if you don't wear it, like you're talking about, if you don't wear anything, it's like, that's a big, this serves as a really wonderful warning to anybody who's about to get into riding. Once they take the class, even if they say, yeah, I'm definitely going to wear the gear, you can go in and say like, well, I've got this much budget and this is what I'm gonna walk out the door with, but here's the warning. You can buy that stuff. It's going to do the job good on you, but you're going to spend a lot more as the years go on. You're going to keep raising the game and going for the better helmet. It happens every time if you do it right.

Brian: That first $500 helmet is a, is, is a, is a plunge. And then you find out it's worth it.

Joanne: Right. And there's no, that's no different from any other awesome hobby you get into like skiing, like you're new to skiing and you might rent equipment, but then maybe a year in, you're going to buy your own set, right? You're going to invest in, in it more when you're ready. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Robin: So, but this sounds like you're trying not to tell the story. Oh, sorry. We are not, this podcast will not end until we understand.

Joanne: So there I was riding along, I was on my street triple. Well, I've actually several times. I mean, all I've, so I've only had sport bikes. So there's a page somewhere in there about me and you can see all the bikes that I've ridden or owned. I've only owned six, seven motor, eight motorcycles, like in my name, like my motorcycles, but I've thrown a leg over maybe 30 different bikes in my, just in general, like a friend's like here, test ride this, or I've rented a bike or I've just had the opportunity to ride a variety of motorcycles in addition to the ones I own, but I've only owned sport bikes. So, um, after our first two wheel vehicle, which was a little scooter in San Francisco, then we started buying motorcycles, sport bikes. And, um, as soon as I started to ride long distance is like a hundred mile days, 200, 300 mile days and trips and weekends, you know, out adventuring and exploring on my bike. Um, you know, you use your Google, but I mean, way back then you were using Google and maybe books, maybe maps to find roads, really cool, twisty roads. Right. Yeah. Um, and you end up on roads that might end like, so a lot of my rides, uh, like in Northern California, I would just, there was one ride. I went on with a bunch of women from the passionate forum. Have you ever been on passionate P A S H N I T.com?

Robin: Passionate.com. Yeah.

Joanne: Passionate.com. It's started by a wonderful man named Tim and Tim is an amazing, uh, sport bike enthusiast, sport touring enthusiast. He tours, he's probably toured a million miles on his Hayabusa. He started this website to start reviewing and sharing roads in Northern California. So if you live in Northern California and you want to know all the cool roads and routes and places to go, you really need to pay for passionate.com and get access to all of his ride reports. This is like 20 years of history here.

Robin: Can do.

Joanne: We went on a ride. It was a girly ride cause it was just all women. And so we went riding and, um, my friend Nancy, she led one of the days she routed it and we were on this long ride and we were riding through some back road and then the road ended and it was all gravel for like, I don't know, maybe half a mile. It really wasn't that long, but that was my first time on the dirt on my sport bikes. That was my SV 650 S and it was, I'd never been on the dirt, not really like sure on the side of the road. Okay. Getting off the freeway or something, but not like out riding. And it was terrifying. Um, yeah. I like, I don't know what I'm doing, you know? So she coached me through it cause that's what she does. And, um, she actually teaches a street masters, uh, motorcycle workshops. And so that was my first time on the dirt. And then after that, uh, that bike, I got the street triple. And so the street triple is when I really started doing like long distance. Cause I moved to the East coast. I bought the street triple a year later. And I did numerous trips from Philadelphia, uh, East. Cause there's no, there are no good roads in Philadelphia. You have to go like six hours North. You have to go six hours West. Um, and then you have to go a day out. You have to go to Virginia, West Virginia. You have to go to the down South.

Robin: Oh, I love those states though.

Joanne: Right. West Virginia, right? Two 50. Fantastic. Amazing. Right. So the closest to barrier riding for me was West Virginia. Um, and then Western, a little bit of Western PA, but really PA is just kind of flat and there's not much turning like elevation change and smooth riding like there is in California Bay area and West Virginia. So West Virginia, uh, PA, I just was, when I first moved there, I was obsessed about finding roads like the barrier roads. Um, there's two freeways in the barrier, 36 and nine highways. There was where Alice's is like Alice's restaurant. So where that is, it's nestled in the Santa Cruz mountains. And that's where some of the best roads in California live is right in there. Um, so I was trying to find roads that I could find that were somewhat close. So when you live in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, you have to piece together like 20 roads to make a route. Yeah. There's no such thing as go right out nine and come back. That doesn't, there's no such thing out there. So I was obsessed finding roads. I'd go on Google and see if they were paved. And a lot of these roads would just end. So like one time I let a ride with like six people and we ended up, um, oh my God, it was like in the middle of, it was like Western PA somewhere. And it was like really great switchbacks and hairpins, but it was all dirt.

Robin: Okay. Yeah.

Joanne: It was all dirt and gravel, all of it. And we had to just tool, I had to tool through that 10 miles going 10 miles an hour. I don't know. I didn't know what to do. I don't know how to ride in the dirt on a street triple. So I'm going slow and just kind of like going 10 or 15 miles an hour to get through that. And that was one route that I did that in, but there were countless rides like that I would do and get stuck on the dirt. The one that I remember the most is the Blue Ridge Parkway. My girlfriend and I, we met up in West Virginia to go riding together. So she lived in North, South Carolina. I lived in Philly. We met there to go hang out and go riding. We decided to go off to the Blue Ridge Parkway and ride kind of off and on it. So we found a really great road off the parkway.

Robin: The stitched roads are better than the BRP by far.

Joanne: Right. Like Blue Ridge Parkway is lovely. It's fine. Whatever. But that really wasn't what we were doing exactly. So we got off of it. I thought I found a really good road and I did for a while, but then the pavement ended, it just ends there. And maybe because they're always repaving, I don't know, but it was paved at one point and then it just stopped and we ended up on this like steep uphill switch back gravel, one lane road. You couldn't turn around. Like when it, when the pavement ended and I'm on my street triple, when the pavement ended, you couldn't, there wasn't room to turn around like, yes, in a perfect world, I wanted to turn around. And she was on her BMW F650 GS.

Robin: Um, so she can turn around the street. Triple R's turning radius is it's gotta be dipped down lower.

Joanne: I would have had to do like a hard 10, which I've done like a hard 10 point turn and a one, you know, I've done that, but not on gravel and certainly not with my track boots. Like I, when I, you know, when I tour on the street, I actually wear my track boots. So, um, she's like, do you want to turn around? I said, yes, but I don't want to turn around because this looks really hard. We're up, we're pointing uphill. And I, the idea of like turning around and going back the way we came was more terrifying than just going up the moderate hill. It wasn't a hill climb or anything. Like it wasn't like enduro, like, you know, big rocks or anything. It was just, it was literally just gravel.

Robin: Trials bikes on the street, triple.

Joanne: Basically. So we just kept going. We're like, all right, well, let's keep going. And so it was like two miles of just windy uphill on the street triple. And then eventually we ended up on the parkway because there's all these little weird turns off the parkway.

Robin: Yes.

Joanne: You know, there'll be like a random road. Yes. So I just end up there. I'm like, thank God.

Robin: I said this on like last episode, two episodes ago that the road we use to promote our seven day tour is a road out of Candler, North Carolina that just leads from Candler up to the BRP. And it's just some offshoot. Yeah. Random. Yeah. And I just, there was nobody on it and I got the whole thing from start to bottom. I was like, well, here's a lie. I'll tell the customers let's use that. Come on. We're not riding this. Join us.

Joanne: That, uh, I don't, yeah. I mean, now on my little two 50, sure. No problem. That sounds great. I'm totally down, but not on, um, not on my sport bike. And like that, my bike has so much torque in first gear. Like I had to be really careful in second. Just not to spin my rear wheel out. I mean, I had track tires, like I had like aggressive Michelin's on them with very no rain zipes, but you know what, I'm going to call that Michelin right now because I'm a diehard Michelin girl forever. I will never, ever, ever switch out of a Michelin tire because nope, because this is why for, um, for the street triple, I don't know. Okay. I'm not adventure tires, but at least for street bikes, the, um, those I had old power RSS, not pilots. It was like the next generation tires.

Robin: Okay.

Joanne: The traction in all the next gen tires are so amazing. Every time I got stuck on the dirt, it was with a Michelin. So even on my SV, I was on old pilots. They were on old pilot power.

Robin: There's tires worked out in the end for every incident. That's what you're saying.

Joanne: Did exactly. And then when, when I got the street triple, I upgraded to the new power lines, which was like the next gen pilots and the traction is like 10 times better. Um, I've slid out in the rain in those no rain sites. Those things are amazing.

Robin: Definitely talking in our wheelhouse now, because we've, we've debated so many times about. I feel no difference in the R sixes versus my, my road smart threes. They're identical, except for the price is double for the Michelin. So I call them out as like, nope, I'm not doing it.

Joanne: I'm going to guess that it's the rain traction because that's where I've had. I was the most impressed. It was not on the racetrack. Although I did take them on the track where I'm a believer. And the reason why I'm a Michelin girl is because how they handled in the rain and wet on the street trip.

Robin: I'll back you up on it.

Joanne: That's probably why never an issue for me.

Robin: So, so the Dunlop's did fantastic. The Michelin's did fantastic. And this is the only argument I'm making this entire episode because you're here and I got to be very careful because this is totally reasonable.

Joanne: And I just don't want to jinx it and try something different. I'm like, if save me, there's no need for me to change. Like I'm good. I've got road five now. I love it.

Robin: There does seem to be a brand transition that feels weird. You know, like if you change the brand for something's different, you can definitely that I do get.

Joanne: They've saved me so much. I'm like, I just refuse to give them up because they've done such a good job. So yeah, up until the two years ago when I rode dirt for the first time, I'd been on the dirt more on my sport bikes than on an actual dual sport or a dirt specific motorcycle, but I didn't know what I was doing. Um, but, but the worst one was when I, so when we moved to Philly, my husband had this, we both sold our bikes here. And I mean, in San Francisco, we lived there. So we sold the sport bikes and then we're like, we'll just buy new ones when we go over there. We just don't want to spend the money to transport our bikes. So when we moved, he bought, um, his dream sport bike. His dream bike was to buy a, which he'd finally bought was an Oh six or seven speed triple and roulette green. So he hunted one down and bought one in New Hampshire and then he wrote it home. He got it at a steel. So that was like his dream bike. So he still has it. He loves it. So when he bought that, I had a, another SV 650, which I bought when we moved. So I bought an SV 650 naked, the more upright because I had an S model. So I had that bike for like six months. I bought it in March and then I sold it in a year. Okay. I bought it in March and sold it the next year because when I bought mine, he had bought the speed triple. So I decided to just ride it like, this is a great bike. I want to ride it. The problem with the speed triple in that generation is they're absurdly tall. Like I couldn't get both feet down at the same time.

Robin: They were the beginning of the street fighter profile. I think like before KTM, that, that one did it.

Brian: Yeah. They kind of had the butt in the air. Yeah.

Joanne: Yeah. Because the Oh six and seven has a different slope, right? It's got a stubby tail and he's also six foot 200 pounds. So suspension is for him, you know, it's for him. Like it fits him amazing as it should. And it, the speed triples are not set up for people like me. So that was actually even harder because I can't get both feet down. I can only get one toe down at a time because it's that tall. So at the time I had to, I still have to is hop. So I have to very quickly hop one foot to the left, one foot at a time, even to get the side stand down. So I fell in love with it when he bought it. I would decided I'd write it to work. I just wanted to write it because before that we had a sprint, we had a tramp sprint and a one, and it was amazing.

Robin: And that bike, yep.

Joanne: So we had a Lucifer orange one and that one was the ergonomics are a hundred percent different. So it was actually a lot lower and, and way just different. It was easier to ride.

Robin: Fantastic. Like that. They have just a deep scoop for a seat. Excellent.

Joanne: It was, it was great. Right. And the, and we bought it for a steel and the guy had modified it completely Penske shock, everything risers, the whole nine. So he sold that and then he bought his dream, you know, really green. It's be triple. I just always felt the pressure to like, all right, I have to be really careful. I can't drop this. I have to be really, you know, I fell in love with it so much because I, I was writing it to work and then I decided to take it on an overnight. So I took it overnight from Philly up to the border of New York port Jervis. It's like this lovely scenic part at the border of PA in New York. And it's lovely. So I did an overnight weekend trip solo. And took the bike up there. Um, and mind you, I can't get both feet down. I have to do one foot. So I'm being very careful and it's all, and I'm doing a paved ride and I'm doing like, you know, back road riding and really pretty road, just a nice road ride up North and back and I get to port Jervis and it's, um, there's like a lake there, I guess, and there's a little Island. So I decided to turn across this little bridge like, Oh, what is over there? So I go across this tiny little bridge. It's like a, you know, an old school bridge with like wood and like steel, you know, it's not like a paved road.

Robin: Yeah.

Joanne: So I ride, I ride across it. No, it's fine. It's a bumpy little bridge, whatever. I ride across it and you get to the Island and it's a private road.

Robin: Okay.

Joanne: So it's one lane.

Robin: They could have told you before the bridge.

Joanne: I didn't know. And it's not paved. So when I get off the bridge, it's dirt. Fuck.

Robin: Oh, yep. No, we do that here.

Joanne: Where I was not alive.

Robin: That's all right.

Joanne: It was the first time I'd been on the dirt on his motorcycle ever like crap. So then I hopped lightly off. I was like, okay. And then I slowly turned, I got, cause I get off and park my bikes.

Robin: I don't really stand in the whole, like, let it fall into you, back it up, push it forward, let it fall into you, back it up.

Joanne: Probably like the whole gravity turn. Yeah. Like, uh, if you search my blog, I have a, how to park guide.

Robin: Nice. GearChick.com.

Joanne: I got, thank you. So I got off and then I carefully, cause I thought maybe I could ride on the road. No, it was a private, it was like, no trespassing, private road, whatever this road is on this Island. So that was the first time I was on the dirt on his bike. But then I quickly learned that a lot of the roads there, they just end like some road on Google that looks regular. The pavement stops maybe cause they're repaving. And I ended up so many times on that overnight on the dirt. Just, I took a picture at one point where I came to like an intersection, like a V. And I stopped. I was like, God, I keep ending up on the dirt. I think I took a picture.

Robin: It'd be worse if you just kept ending up at that intersection.

Joanne: I did not want to end up on the dirt, but I had, I just kept ending up there. And that's just like East coast riding. Apparently that's just the way it is. It's just, yeah.

Brian: Arkansas does that too. Uh, they'll, they'll build this beautiful, beautiful road up a mountain, wonderful sweepers. You're just hauling along and then it stops. Uh, we ran out of money. We'll come back in five years, the rest of it.

Robin: I guess so with some ludicrous guy at the end of the woods, at the end of the road, saying they're here to steal my gold. It's private.

Brian: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. That's it.

Joanne: Maybe, but yeah, I told it out of there. I was like, all right, I need to go. So then I turned around, but yeah, I ended up on the dirt a few times on that bike and I was just terrified of dropping it. I was like, please don't drop it.

Brian: Yeah. And I mean, after you've had some dual sport training, even on a street bike, it, you know, you have some idea of what to do anyway, you know, it's, you know, you're not just completely out, clueless and trying to survive.

Joanne: Yes. At least it was. Yes. At least now it's a little bit more comfortable, but it's still to me, it's a whole, it's still a whole thing of retraining. It's really hard to retrain myself. Out to get away from what I'm used to with street riding. So it's still kind of scary and I don't love it yet. I mean, I like it a lot, but it's definitely not natural yet. And after I crashed and broke my arm, it kind of sent me back a little bit.

Robin: Yeah. See, that's what I was about to say was that if given what you were talking about before all of this inspired discussion is coming from a standpoint where you were saying that there hasn't been a lot of riding for you recently or, or this year, even, I don't know. No. I'm taking inspiration from this as well, because there's a whole lot of things that I just decided to take a break from this year in terms of availability and time to ride, even though the miles were still big, you're kind of ramping me up for next year to say like, you know what, get fit again, get healthy again, get your endurance up, practice, practice, practice. These are the things that need to be on my agenda. So this conversation is helping me a thousand fold in all directions. I got to say, Brian's on the hot seat. Brian, if you have to fire out three questions to get the ball rolling with her again, what would those questions be? I've got a list. I'm sorry.

Joanne: Yeah. Yeah. I love a list.

Brian: There's a whole hunk and a whole episode we could do on coming back to riding after a serious injury.

Joanne: Right.

Brian: Getting your head in around that. I mean, I've, I've had to do that. The fear.

Joanne: Yeah, totally.

Brian: So that, that's something that would, that would take some time to dig into because I think you have, I think he'll have some neat things to say about that. Um, and as far as I know, Robert hasn't broke anything, so he can just sit and watch. Uh, well, don't, I don't recommend it. I did just get hit by a deer.

Joanne: Oh no.

Brian: Oh, like recently?

Robin: Yesterday.

Joanne: Wait, in a car or in the truck?

Robin: Yeah. Our big F three 50 King ranch, 6.7 Larry at something long name. That doesn't count.

Brian: If you're getting hit by a deer, that's, that's what you want to be in.

Joanne: Very true.

Brian: One of the things is motorcycling and a lot of times it's really tough to find the right tribe or people to be around. Uh, I've, you know, a lot here in Indiana, we're really close to Milwaukee. So I'll let you guess what most of the riders around here are riding. Um, yeah, but, uh, yeah, it can be really tough to find that. And like in dual sport riding, like I've shown up a few times or somebody on advrider.com will have a little set up a ride. They'll show up and it'll be like, it'll be like people they'll do stuff I don't want any part of. Like they'll be going across pastures that don't belong to them. They'll be doing sand and stuff like that. And there'll be people like, oh yeah, this is, this is, this is an easy hill. It's just, it's just a bunch of baby heads. And then there's a mud bog at the bottom. Um, it's only a foot deep, you know, what, what's wrong? Yeah. Yeah. Like there's no, like you need a, you need a diamond system or something like they have in skiing, I think in dual sporting.

Joanne: Yes. Uh, yes. I recently went to, well, this year I've been able to go to, um, both of the RevZilla Adventure Fests. So Sturgis and Mojave and I went to Sturgis cause it's closer to Colorado. So we got to trailer our bikes there. Has been also the DRZ 400. So we trailered both bikes and we got to actually do some riding on them.

Brian: Yeah.

Joanne: At the Black Hills. Yeah.

Brian: And they do some, I've, I've, I've actually used those, uh, tracks, um, uh, out in South Dakota for a dual sport ride. And yeah, they do a pretty good job of grading them. Um, and that helps a lot because people just, oh yeah, this is nothing. And you know, you're going straight up a, you know, somebody else's pasture and it's a mud bog and it's like, stop it.

Joanne: Yeah, I went, yeah, I went on an easy ride there and there was some two track in the middle. It was like four miles, three miles of two track, like not mud, but what was mud? Maybe it was just like, yeah, not great.

Brian: And it's your attention.

Joanne: It was my first time doing any track, any in a year. Like I hadn't really been doing much riding. So I, in my helmet, I'm like, I really don't want to do this, but I couldn't just stop and turn around. Like there was no like U-turn. So I just had to do it. And I did, I did it, but it was terrifying.

Robin: I'm going to extend the invite then. Cause we're heading to New Mexico next and Maggie's street triple R is down here. It would, this would be paved only. And if you feel like going for a long ride, I've got a three day thing we do in New Mexico that is curvy and baller and fun.

Joanne: Oh, paved down, done. Paved, perfect. I'm totally down for that. But yeah, I found going to that event was actually fantastic to find some, to find some people, I mean, of course, you know, the people are coming from all over, so that's hard. And I'd say finding people like where you are, that's, you know, that's probably the harder thing to do. Um, what I've noticed is that there are a lot of local, more locally based dual sport and adventure groups on Facebook, um, to find people, but to be honest, I have been terrible by taking advantage of them because I've just been so busy traveling for my job and I haven't been good about going out to practice and like get some seat time. Um, uh, for me, my goal is probably to reach out to go riding with some of the women's only adventure groups that I've been able to find, um, that are, yeah. And so for women, that, that's definitely something that we have, um, that I definitely recommend a lot of women explore because the men's only groups, when they're predominantly men, the dynamics are very different and it's just different. It's not worse. It can be, but it's just different. It's a different dynamic and you, um, benefit in a very different way. Um, I think, yeah, it's, I think you're right. It's just very difficult, I think, to find those friends. When I was learning to street ride, um, and do some, you know, really get into sport touring and get outside of San Francisco and actually go out riding and do day trips, we joined a meetup group that two friends of mine started and they've since done away with it cause they moved and they're not doing it anymore. But it was a, it was a Bay area specific street riding group touring and sport touring, um, and met so many great people there. So I would go out on the ride, those rides, um, as often as I could. So I racked up 6,000 miles in the first six months joining that group.

Robin: The world needs meet up again. It used to be a free thing.

Joanne: Oh, is it not free anymore?

Robin: No, that's what killed it. I think is that now people can't meet up because they have to pay.

Joanne: Well, now there's Facebook.

Brian: Yeah. And they're trying to have Facebook and it's, it's Facebook.

Joanne: I know. Well, I, but I think that Facebook is still a good resource to find people. Um, and there's so many now that you can look at the different groups and kind of read through kind of if they have rules or guidelines about rides and, um, you know, get to know people. Um, but I would recommend, I, I don't know if I'm just jaded and getting old, but I don't like riding with people that I don't know anymore. I, I, I, I liked, but it, and not that I'm not, it's not that I don't want to meet these people, meet people and say hello and get to know them and become friends and go riding. It's not that I just don't want to show up on a Saturday to a ride. Then I don't know anyone yet. And just go riding with a group of people. I don't know without having to get into know them first. So I would probably find a group where, Hey, we're doing a, just a meeting for burgers and shit, you know, to go eat on a Wednesday night and socialize off the motorcycle to get to know people and get to know their riding style and the way they ride, or, you know, to see like, like you were saying, you know, you know, fellow beginners, fellow newer, newer riders. Wow.

Robin: I was going to say that's kind of the flip side. If, if you know the kind of people that you like to ride with, then you can usually get a feel pretty quick in a conversation as to whether or not this is a person you would trust to maintain safe distance, staggered formation, using technique, trail braking to a delayed apex in a blind corner, not using the entire road, unless they have a really big field. You know, it's like, I want to know that they're not.

Brian: It takes a lot of experience to get there though. It takes a lot of experience to figure that out and mistakes.

Joanne: Yeah. And yeah, I think you just have to find those groups where the message is, we are here to have a good time, but we're not here to outperform each other. We're here to get to know each other. We're here to go to lunch and find a cool place to eat and have a really casual, leisurely ride versus I'm here to outperform all of you or whatever. Like you can, I think, get a really good sense of the group. And for me, it was getting to know the founders, like, just as people and friends, like, oh, hey, and just talking to them. And then we became really good friends. So you, yeah. And then talking about motorcycling, like I'm new. Cause I was really new at the time. She was husband and wife. They were, you know, we were kind of in the same place as far as learning styles. And then as their group grew and more people joined, you know, then we met a lot of those people and got to know them and became more comfortable to ride with them. And it was instrumental for me to learn to sport tour and actually just to learn to ride better because I sucked.

Robin: It's the slow cook.

Joanne: Yeah. Cause, but it, you know, it's, I think it is, it is really hard, especially when you're not great, you're like, you're okay, you know, you're safe, but you're not that proficient or that good. It's hard to find people who have the patience to help you be better. Cause you have to ride with good, you have to ride with good people to get better. You can't go riding with people who are terrible and get better.

Robin: Sure. You can make enemies trying to find good riders to ride with, you know, the desire to become better and the pushback you can get from people who aren't open enough to try to help you find that.

Joanne: Or, you know, we would have rides where there would be different rides happening the same day. So like, okay, the easy ride is going to happen with this group. So like the wife, she would take, Hey, I'm going to lead the easy group. My husband's going to lead the fast group. Cause he was a faster, he liked to ride fast and hard. So they would split the people up. Like that's always a good sign, right? Is if there is a group of people that there's going to be some division. And I want to know who the leadership is. I want to know who is in charge of organizing this ride. Who is going to be in charge of, of leading the ride. I want to meet you.

Robin: This is where Brian comes into play. Cause you would show up if you were at a Suzuki GS rally, Brian would be like, I don't know, here's your maps. Be safe. Those guys are quick. Those guys are slow. Everybody's friendly. Hang out. See you when you get back. Which I think if you were to receive that information, haven't set everything off, that actually can be calming. Like, okay, I guess I can take a breath and figure out where do I want to be? Who do I want to be riding with? It's just another perspective is all.

Joanne: Yeah, totally. And I think that is where a lot of male driven groups can take a cue from a lot of women's specific motorcycle groups. Cause I've ridden in both environments. I've ridden with all guys. I've led groups of all guys. I've ridden with all women. I've led groups of all women. There's a very different dynamic and a really good example of that is a women's specific off-road event called over and out, uh, Pennsylvania out in Tamaqua. It's near Jim Thorpe. It's women's only off-road and they're starting to do adventure. You cannot be a guy and just show up and register your, you can't register actually.

Robin: Okay. I'm guessing that's over and out moto.

Joanne: Yep. So like Maggie would have to register and she could bring you. That is one of the best events I've ever been to as a female rider. Um, it was absolutely amazing. The rides were actually, the trails were all cleaned and prepared and scouted by men. So all the trail dudes were the ones out there scouting everything and cleaning everything and getting the rides ready and getting the routes put together and then support. So like if you went down or you needed help, they had a whole set. They were really organized. So they could like radio, like they had really great maps. So you could say I'm in box G five. This is where I fell down and someone would come help you. So it was really, really well done. But the dynamic with all women is that the end goal is literally just to go have fun. The end goal has absolutely, it's just different. You know, when a, when a lot of guys get together, I think very naturally a common goal is who's the fastest, who's this and who's that. Not to say that women aren't competitive. Well, we can be, but generally speaking, the dynamics tend to be more social and fun. It tends to drive in that direction. Sure. With specific groups of women, absolutely. It can be really, really competitive and really aggressive, but in like this over and out kind of environment, it's all very, Hey, I just want to hang out and have fun and like, get to know you and go check out this trail. Cool. Let's go together. And like supportive, like it's, it's just different because in general, we are women are different animals, right? We're different people. If you can go join a women's only, right?

Brian: That's awesome. Yeah. It is something, you know, like leading a ride or putting, you know, even just leading a ride for a day or putting together a tour or whatever, you have to really consciously be mindful about fighting that macho BS thing.

Joanne: And you have to make it really clear. I think even with all guys, right? Yeah. You have to, I think, set from the very beginning, a strong precedence and also demonstrate it to that we're here to have a good time. I don't care what you ride and I don't care how much money you have. I don't care what you do or how long you've done it here to have fun and check out this awesome road. Maybe make friends, have some good food, maybe find some ice cream, you know, find a good restaurant and some really cool scenery. That's not, that's what this is. And if you set that ground rule in the beginning of the expectations upfront, what I've observed is most guys that I've, they're like, oh, cool. Awesome. That's great. I think, you know, fantastic. Let's have fun. And most people are on board 99% of the time. Everyone is on board with that. It's when you don't address it and you leave it off the table and then everyone just says, okay, well, I guess I'm going to go up front because I'm fastest or whatever. And it's, it's just setting expectations. This is how this ride is going to be. If you do not like that, you should not come. And that was the kind of messaging my friends would have is, this is not that. If you pass someone on the inside line, just as we're going out of the parking lot, we're never riding with you again. Right. Exactly. Like those are sick, right? So safety rules, safety meeting was very, it just set very clear expectations of this is the kind of group this is. And this is not for you. If you want to ride like that, if you don't want to ride like this, you don't have to, we're not forcing you to hang out with us, but do not hang out with us. If that's what you're trying to do because you're right. So it was a lot of, it was just really, those are ground rules. And I think people just have to communicate with each other more often to, to share that. And if you're showing up at a ride and you're hearing nothing at all from anybody about, okay, this is how the day's going to go. And this is how we're going to respond. If someone gets hurt or whatever, then you probably should turn around and not ride with these people. Like if there's no communication to me, that's a huge red flag. Like where the hell is the safety, right? Like where's the leadership? And I think that's how you can totally find somebody to ride with.

Robin: I like your style. It's been our pleasure. The name is Joanne Don and her website is gearchick.com and she's got tons of solid advice for you, whether you're male, female, non-denominational, whatever it is. There's some kit that will protect you. And she's going to write about it more because now she's inspired and she's going to get back to it and some writing as well. And I can't thank you enough for being here. It's sincerely been something we've been meaning to do is reach out to more people such as yourself and just say, come tell us how it is and maybe we can tell you a thing or two and it always works out to be a great conversation. In your case, it really is raising the bar. So I can't thank you enough, Joanne Don. I appreciate you being here.