Robin: If you want to show support for this motorcycle podcast, visit donate.tro.bike. All right, it is Monday, October 10th, and the last time I was on a podcast episode was in March of 2022. Yeah, that far back. And if I'm looking at my calendar, that means I would have run trip sevens, our seven-day motorcycle tour, flown back and forth to Wisconsin, returned to North Carolina, just in time to meet up with friends for a local ride, then on to Missouri for the Ozarch rally, then to Arkansas for Kelly Howard's rally. And now here I am with you in Pikeville, Tennessee, where I've tried multiple times to record this intro and all of my pre-interview intros. You see, I really want this episode to go perfectly as possible. I care about the topic, which we'll get to in a moment. And as a result, I've tried to ad-lib this intro where I just blathered on and randomly made statements that digressed into oblivion and typed out a specific script that perfectly reflected my emotion as I read through it. So to make it clear, this one's pretty important to me. These are prepared words. If you're a regular listener, you probably know my voice. I'm Robin, founder of TRO circa 2014. What you might not know is I'm also a loosely regarded adult supervisor, or cat herder, under the title of MSF rider coach. I'm proud to say that I earned my basic certification back in 2015, followed by intermediate, advanced, and even three-wheel creds shortly after. Becoming a rider coach made me a better motorcyclist. Like any true-to-form sport enthusiast, I still like to go quick, even faster in the right environment, but with a lot more consideration for my own safety, assumed risk, and the general public around me. The MSF training arena equips each rider coach with a step-by-step curriculum, and even a script for coaches to read, much like these words I'm reading now. A script that's proven effective, thanks scientific method, and protects us in a court of law should things go awry. There's a little bit of room to show our personality, but in truth, the job is really all about being as lazy as possible, without abandoning concern for the people we are helping. None of the curriculum is hidden or top secret, in fact. Once we read info that's relevant to the current exercise, we're allowed to hand them the entire script while we ride a demonstration. That can help them identify important points on the map while they watch. This takes years of practice, and some classes prove more challenging than others, but the reward far outweighs the effort. Every time. Which brings me to the point of this rant. The MSF is in dire need of rider coaches. So much so that they trained me. Kidding. Or maybe I'm not. But at any rate, we need fellow riders who want to help people and are patient enough to do so responsibly, under the veil of MSF training standards. Actually, I'll even jump ship from the MSF brand and say whatever your state uses to educate and license riders, this episode aims to inspire you to better yourself by becoming a trainer that will, in turn, better the students you train. Yep, it's a bit of a daisy chain. And with that, I'm Robin Dean, and this is the Riding Obsession Podcast. If you hear a group of motorcycle instructors talk about outreach, you might find it pretty hard to tell if they're serious or telling a joke. But if you let some adrenaline junkie, sport touring hooligan who somehow loopholed a rider coach badge onto his forehead, aka me, interview five MSF administrators, aka super important top tier big dogs on the matter, and maybe we can clear things up on ways to ask you, the listener, to consider making the motorcycling world better by becoming a rider coach. Again, the topic is outreach, or in simple terms, hiring more trainers. Let's begin. It's funny that I mention the scripted nature of MSF training, considering our first interview is with one of the most talented curriculum improvisers anyone has ever seen. I met Jason Hereheim at Engelhardt Motorsports in Madison, Wisconsin, way back in 2017. I was fast impressed with his social demeanor, how he responded to my ego complexes, me wanting to be the guy that knows things. Jason was kind, receptive, nonjudgmental, or at least it looked that way. And I had no idea that I was talking to the man who runs the Madison Technical College Maintenance Training Program, where he teaches people to become diesel mechanics, also the administrator of their MSF program. Jason Hereheim, thank you for being here. Again, you've got all these different kinds of motorcyclists out there, all these different kinds of riders. Some of them are good candidates to become rider coaches, but they don't really have any real direct understanding of it, or they've never thought to do this. How would you like to reach out to these people out there?

Jason: I think there's a couple ways to reach people, or at least a couple ways when you're in front of somebody to tap into them thinking about it. And it usually goes down one of, we'll call it, three paths. Those that have maybe just got training, and I might like to say that there's a little bit of overconfidence due to training, but we all go to a class, come on, like, oh, I learned all that stuff. I know this. So for those people that get excited about it, tap into that and go, hey, if you want to take this to the next level and be able to share your experience with other new riders, i.e. what you were two days ago when you walked into this class someday in the future, here's some action steps that you can take to set yourself up for going down that path. And it takes a while. It's a lot of investment. That's the easy one, being a guy that teaches entry-level rider classes. So you get, let's say, 16 of those people a weekend that you can just tell that. It doesn't matter what step they're actually at. Assuming they pass a basic rider course, they generally have a smile on their face at the end. And that's an okay thing to set out there in front of them. One of the other groups of people that I deal with are those that are interested in class. They've been riding for a while. They know they want more training. It just never lines up for their schedule for one way, shape, or form. And for those folks, it's easy to appeal to their ego. Say, yeah, you know, hey, if you want to get into this, one way to do it is to go through and start teaching, making those potential trap situations on the front side thought process. You'll start seeing more of them. You'll start making a place for this in your life. And you can, again, go through that training. But for those people that want the training, the bait is, hey, you know, we'd really like to see people that have been through some of the beyond basic rider classes. It doesn't have to be in a, quote, advanced class, but just something beyond that. It helps, number one, you're out there talking the talk and walking the walk or riding the ride, that is. The other part is that we can get people in the pipeline so we can make sure they actually know how to ride to get them some of that vernacular that's very important for the training, that everybody's talking the same language, so to speak. Even though we're trying to accomplish the same thing, they're on a national level being, let's call it four major curriculum providers. They're all putting out entry level motorcyclists. They can call it whatever they want, but that's what we're doing with slightly different verbiage. But getting somebody in the pipeline to do that is good. And, you know, that that seeds the next beyond basic rider class.

Robin: Are you bridging that to people who might be prospective coaches in the future?

Jason: Yeah, it's especially for those people that if somebody reaches out and they want more training, that to me is somebody that is in a safety mindset that would be likely to pass on skills to somebody else. And I don't mean want training like from the they're off the sidewalk, learn how to ride a motorcycle because we get those people. But I mean, the person that's been a motorcyclist like, you know, I really want to take this blah, blah, blah class. Well, taking that class for me is one of those entry level steps to getting somebody down the path of becoming a rider coach in order for me to do it. I want to know that somebody is there for more than the paycheck to be there for more than just the badge that they did it or they can or whatever. It's got to be to help other people. I find it really hard to take somebody seriously that's trying to sell me something that they wouldn't do on their own. So having coaches that will put a little effort into themselves, I think speaks volumes for what you're trying to do. I love that when I have a class and I introduce my coaches, the students know at the end that we're really motorcyclists. Not that in 99.9% of cases, everybody that teaches a basic rider course is probably a motorcyclist or was last year. But I want students to know that we actually try and we take training and we do stuff. And we're not dumb enough to think, hey, you took a two-day class, you got a license, you're good to go and know everything there is to know about motorcycling. But back to the third person, we'll call it rider type. I already know what I need to know. You're not going to teach me a damn thing. I've been doing this for 30 years. You got nothing you're going to teach me. Cool. You take applications. Let's take all that knowledge, put it in small digestible pieces and see if you can help other riders. And sometimes like, yeah, I taught my nephew to ride. I'm like, cool, then you got a little bit of experience. I assume your nephew didn't die as part of the process. Maybe you can come down the path and help us and help others. And sometimes that's there. Sometimes it's people admitting that they don't have the temperament to deal with that. And that's okay too. But stepping back out of that, I know everything position in life, generally opens up a potential coach to a conversation. And who knows, it might happen or they might know somebody. Maybe they got somebody in their rider group that just has that kind of temperament.

Robin: It's interesting. You're explaining in a way where it sounds like there's different kinds of outreach, where there's the type of person who that person would be great and they don't know it. And you approach them. The other one is sort of neutral and parallel, where you can just sort of sideline the message to them laterally. And then the other one is the one who's defensive, but you can then invert that defense into, hey, clearly you've got something to offer.

Jason: I certainly hope so. It's no different than reaching out to riders in general, when you're trying to get them to a class. You have different types of people that are going to do different things. There's different people that come in, just on a national level, into a basic rider course.

Robin: Do you see any rider coach looking at that as a career?

Jason: Career is one of those words that here in Wisconsin, if you can make your money in six months and pay the electricity bill, you're doing far better than most of us. That is not something I would sell anybody on as a career. But be cool if you did, for those of you that are, we'll call it the gypsy folks that can move around, go where the weather is. Cool. That's absolutely spectacular. It is not something that we can pull off here. But as a supplemental income stream that offers tremendous payback on an emotional level, the rider coach thing is pretty cool.

Robin: Nice. So then to that one student in a class that just really stands out, what do you want to tell them?

Jason: For the one that stands out, I might actually send an email and make a phone call. And it usually has everything to do with what they do in their life, that life experience that puts them in the right place to talk to people and do these things, even if they may not currently have physical skills for motorcycling. The mental capacity to pass on knowledge is the thing. So I don't want to dissuade people that might like to help others just because they don't currently have the motorcycle skills. That doesn't mean that I'm hiring people that don't have any motorcycle skills. I will, however, be happy to put them in a pipeline to have opportunity to gain the motorcycle skills before we put them through the rider coach prep. You don't have to be an expert rider. You don't have to be a racer. You don't have to be king of the cones with the police motor officer thing to be able to teach a basic rider class. But at the same time, you have to be able to teach their basic rider class and the concepts in a basic rider class with zero effort in the riding category and the explanation of what's going on. And that takes a lot of work any way you cut it. I tell customers that they're going to show up with both the mental and physical capacity to control the motorcycle and follow directions and stay on task throughout our entire class. Signing up to be a coach, although there are some minimum standards that some of the curriculum providers put out there, you just signed up to agree to our lifestyle, which sounds freaking horrible. Welcome to our cult. Those little things like, if I have somebody that rolls in to tell me about how great a coach they are or how great a coach they could be, and I have to convince them that wearing a helmet's a good idea. Some things, it becomes disingenuous. And I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that, you know, every time you touch a motorcycle, you better have a helmet on. Yes, it would be a good idea. Does everybody do it? I can give you a billion situations where that didn't happen. However, I'm getting farther and farther away from a place in life where any of those things happened on the street. But assuming they come to me with those skills, we can work with almost anybody. And for some folks, they're going to see the mountain of things to do to be a coach and say, yeah, I want to help, but I don't think I want to do that. And what I'm trying to do now is dedicate a place for those people to go here. You can come in and helpers, probably not the greatest word ever, but to assist in helping people out with the class. And that would be a role that doesn't really involve direct student contact and coaching, yet still being a part of that. And maybe that will give them a glimpse into what the coaches actually do. Maybe they'll want to take that next step and next level. And I know that there's a ton of programs that do that. But for me, that would definitely be a new position. If I'm talking coaching and what I need in a coach, the being coachable part is definitely number one. And after that, it's a little bit of desire. And it's going to be effort on their part. So seriously, though, when I'm hiring coaches or considering hiring coaches, every one of them have come from some form of better than basic rider course training or activities in a variety of motorcycling, we'll call it branches. One of the most recent guys, just beyond avid off-road rider, never gone down that road before, but he's awesome. And we got some guys that are racers. We have some people that have been street riders forever. Some people that are club members that want to come in and help do something beyond a basic rider course. Those are the people that make great coaches. And for those that don't have that available in their area, boy, I hope they can say they were seeking out knowledge somehow, some way. Even I just saw a good friend post up a request for Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist book that I think is from like 1983. Still totally valid in how motorcycles work in a way to think about things. I thought that was pretty hilarious.

Robin: When the Honda Magna was king.

Jason: Bad guess. They're right there before Yamaha made a V-Max. That's totally it. You are spot on, sir.

Robin: So as a rider coach, Jason's taught me a little bit understatement of the year about flexibility and how to be receptive to the learning needs of individual students. If you want to reach out to Jason or sign up for one of his basic through advanced level MSF courses, his MSF ADV course, or any of his own custom classes for continued development in a track environment, his website is RidingSolutions.com, where they're helping people become motorcyclists and motorcyclists ride better. Now, once a week, a group of rider coaches from all over the United States join a Zoom meeting that shall not be named where, if I'm being honest, I'm usually pouring my second or ninth beer, whiskey, or isopropyl before making an arse of myself just to keep myself entertained. But when there's actual tension between coaches in that video chat, there's one particular coach who offers the voice of reason, brings it all together, calms the water, does the exact right thing with as few syllables as possible, electroencephalogram, sorry, had to do it, and nullifies all of the bad vibes. She's the baking soda to any acid. Lynn Vandwater is a rider coach, rider coach trainer, and site administrator in the state of New York. Ms. Vandwater, thank you for doing this. There are the motorcyclists who approach you, and you have to respond with the demands of what will be required of them. You have to answer them calling upon you to become rider coaches. In this case, these are the people that they're not really looking to do this, or they don't really know to consider it. There are people out there that might be phenomenal at this, and this is your opportunity. What would you like to say to any and all of the well-minded motorcyclists out there to inspire them to consider being a rider coach?

Lynne: Wow, that's a great question. You know, I have to say that it is sort of a shotgun approach trying to get those people that aren't already knowledgeable about the system and the training that we do. Sometimes it's just by happenstance that you bump into somebody who's wearing the right gear and seems to have a good attitude, and you have a chat. It opens a door to have a conversation. Then you find out that they live like four hours away, and they're not going to help your cause very much. I would just let people know that this even exists, because I guess for some people, people still don't know about rider training. There's still a bunch of people that are surprised when they discover that there's rider training available. A good avenue is with your current students. Lots of times they get into riding because they know someone who rides, so you can plant a seed with them. Hey, if you know someone that you think might be interested in doing this, we're always looking to have rider coaches. As students in a class, they get a little flavor for what it's about, maybe not the whole thing. Then from students themselves, here in New York, you need to be licensed for two years before you can be considered to be a rider coach, which is part of a DMV regulation. Be a likely candidate in a class who rides decently and has a good personality, more so than their riding, that they seem to have the right vibe. I'll make a little note next to their name. Sometimes I'll approach them about it at the time, but come back to them when they've been licensed for a couple of years and see where they're at with it. As far as just reaching people blind, that's really tricky. I have just a blanket ad on my website right at the top. Hey, recruitment is on for rider coach training. Join the team. I do some advertising on Facebook when I'm promoting a prep and also on Craigslist. I've had a fairly good response as far as people getting back in touch with me. Sometimes they find out what's involved and they're less interested because it is a commitment of their time that they might not be willing to make currently. I try to feel out, is this something that maybe right now is not the right time, but maybe another time? Can I keep you on the list and get back in touch at a future date? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That's my thing. I don't have a magic thing for just finding people out of thin air. I really don't.

Robin: Nobody does. Everybody's half thing is always a completely different thing. In this case, there's all these people out there that are going to hear this. And I think, what would you like to say to them on your terms?

Lynne: I'd like to say, and I truly try very hard not to sugarcoat the process of becoming a coach. It is a huge commitment of your time. You need to know that upfront. You may have an image of rider coaching as you would be. I get to ride motorcycles, but you spend a lot of time on your feet, not riding motorcycles. But to me, there's a huge joy in doing it. It's tremendously fun. And even after all the classes I've done, each class is different. So I'm never bored. There's always something new that walks through the door. And each class presents a challenge for me to decipher and figure out, what am I going to do to help this rider achieve their goal of riding a motorcycle? That's new every time. And it's tremendously rewarding. So you might not be zooming around on a bike all the hours that you're being a rider coach, but it's still a lot of fun because you're getting to do motorcycle stuff with nice people and be a problem solver. So for me, that's part of the big draw.

Robin: So if somebody hears this and they think, okay, no, I get that. All right, this operates. What do you want to speak to in terms of they're expected of in your specific region? Besides the two years, I like that. That was interesting.

Lynne: That's kind of keeping in pace with the requirement to be a DMV driving instructor. You need to be licensed for two years so that they kind of have parity with that. You need to take the BRC as a student within fairly recent timeframe. I think it's six months, but don't quote me, of your prep. You need to shadow minimally one class, but one class is not enough. So hopefully many classes. You're in for two days for your BRC and two days for each class that you shadow, or maybe pieces thereof, depending on how you're able to organize your schedule. There's your pre-course assignment, which is standard with the course, but you'll have to put some time into that. It'll take you a few days to do it if you do it properly and study. And then the prep itself is eight days long. And here in New York, that gains you your MSF certification, but to be recognized by New York state to teach, you then need to be shadowed teaching at least two classes where your sponsor will sign off on. Yes, they have what it takes to now be part of a team teaching a course without being shadowed. So that could possibly be more than two classes. And then many of the sites in New York state are driving schools. So there's an extra layer of certification, which involves becoming a New York state certified driving school instructor. Oh, wow. The writer coach prep takes the place of the driving school instructor course. The prep is actually much better than the driving school instructor course, but we have to test out. So it involves a knowledge test. I think it's a hundred questions and you will not pass it if you don't study. Parts of it are rules of the road. You probably do pay that part and parts of it are about teaching methodology. It's all kind of in keeping with MSF stuff, but the terminology is slightly different. So if you're able to make that leap to their language, you should have no problems. But then it asks weird regulatory things. You've lost your commercial driving license because of X, Y, or Z infraction. How many weeks have to pass before you can reapply? You know, that kind of stuff, if you don't study, you're not going to know. And also driving school regulations and such. So we have a hurdle of preparing coaches to take their knowledge tests. And then also there's a DMV driving school instructor road test for car and motorcycles. So it's just another layer of stuff that has to get done before you're actually recognized and can be on board and teach and get paid.

Robin: So you've got these fine-tuned questions. Some of them may seem annoying, but they force a person to study. Sometimes you can see the point of that, so long as there's not too many of them. And here you are with the gift-wrapped perfect candidate for this experience. Who are you looking at? Who's looking back at you when that person has just landed and arrived?

Lynne: Hopefully someone youngish. Coaching staff, you know, tends to skew a little bit older because that's when people have time in their lives to do it. I actually have a few young rider coach candidates on deck right now, and I'm doing the happy dance. Ones that I've got a few decades on, so yay. But yeah, someone who hopefully rides well. You know, I like to think that if they're not awesome riders, that's something that we can fix because that's kind of what we do. But that they've got a good personality. They're able to interact with people in a friendly, supportive way. That they've got maturity because you're going to encounter stuff in your classes. Sometimes your students will press your buttons and there's stress sometimes, and you need to be able to manage that with grace and professionalism. You can't be immature and do this job. Another driving school in New York is you have to be at least 21 years old to be a driving instructor. That doesn't guarantee maturity, but maybe, maybe it heads in that direction. I was going to say that you're able to interact with people in a reasonable, professional, friendly, positive manner. And, you know, not everybody you meet is able to do that. When I took my, I took a rider course when I was 19 years old and didn't buy a bike until 10 years later. So I'm 29 years old. I went and took a couple of private lessons just to make sure I remember what the heck I was doing. And I was told, you should come back in a couple of months and do an experienced rider course. I said, okay. I drove around for a couple of months and came back. And, you know, looking back on it at the end of that course, the instructor was like, you know, you should think about doing this. And I was thinking, I've had a motorcycle for like 10 minutes. You're out of your mind. But I realized now looking at that class, I remember there was a guy in my class who had the same jacket that I did and he had it all zippered up. He was buttoned up tight, like a rug. And it was, it was hot out. And I was like, you know, your jacket has all these vents here. Let me show you. So I was helping him out with his jacket and doing stuff. The things that happened in that class that the coach was like, wow, here's someone who's helping people out and having a conversation with this person they don't know and giving them a helping hand. And I know that that probably played into their thought process. And I think about that now when I see students interacting on the range. Are they standing off by themselves or are they helping each other and being supportive? That catches my attention.

Robin: That's pretty cool. What do you do then when instead of that perfect candidate, the one who approaches you is the cruiser rider who's been riding for 30 years and I don't have anything left to learn. I've done so many poker runs or the opposite guy who's like, I'm Tom Cruise. The expressway is a racetrack. I do whatever I want, but they feel like they have something to contribute. Do you have that acid versus base that brings them home to like, you know what, maybe you got something to contribute. So long as you can realize, I'm not telling you you're going to be maturing just by reading the cards.

Lynne: Well, you know, the reality is they need to start by taking a basic rider course, or maybe they shadow first. It doesn't matter which comes first, but they're going to be put into the place of being a student so that their riding is either up to par or it's not. And we'll learn that. And that will give us the baseline of what we need to address in that regard. Either they're awesome or they're not, or they're awesome, but they've got a few bad habits that we need to tune up as far as demos are concerned. When I have those coach candidates hanging out with me on the range, I try to give them the play by play of what's going on in my head while I'm teaching the class.

Robin: Wow.

Lynne: Well, I'll say, okay, you know, so we've read the cards. You see how he's reading the cards. I'll show them they have cards. They can see how they're getting from point A to point B and that they're not being extraneous with their comments and stuff. And then these are the evals that get touched on. Notice how he's matching them to the demonstration. They kind of see the flow, but then when we actually start riding, I'll say, okay, I'm going to go over on my spot and he's not going to start sending people out until I'm over in my spot because I got to be here. And while he's sending them out, I'm watching for X, Y, and Z. Hopefully everybody's got their helmet buckled and their shield is down and I don't have to stop people and fix that stuff because that should have been fixed over there. But to kind of call that out, that this is what I'm looking for. And I have to be careful that this traffic situation doesn't develop until staging is empty, for example, or I'm going to send people over here because, and then you look at your cards. Now I have another position over there. So I try to give them the play-by-play that it's not just me out here making it up. There's the thing that we're following and there's reasons for doing it and to let them know what the reasons are so that they can see that there's a depth to it that maybe isn't apparent when you're a student in the class watching it or bystander. And that depth either attracts them or it scares them away, I think. For some people, they're like, wow, this is so cool. I didn't know there was so much stuff to it and I want to know more or, oh, this is a lot more than I bargained for. And I don't know if I'm that interested in being that involved. That's the whole point really of having those shadowings. And for me, I tell them up front, hey, you know what? You come down and shadow these few classes. This is an extended job interview and it's two ways. It's you figuring out if this is something that you'd be a good fit for and it's us figuring out if you would be a good fit. And the chips fall where they fall.

Robin: That's awesome. Lynn Van Water, I want to thank you again. I think you just touched on all kinds of things that nobody else has touched on yet and everybody has done that. And it's really great that your ingredients are in this. This will probably be the most responsible podcast we've ever recorded. This isn't our niche. It isn't our demographic. This isn't what we usually talk about. And I'm taking this one on myself to use these ingredients to do something nice for the Rider Coach community and try to grow it properly.

Lynne: I was going to say there isn't a site anywhere that thinks they have enough coaches. So yeah, anything you can do to get them out of the woodwork, as you say, that would be awesome. We could all use more. Is there anything else you'd like to add? I don't know. I think once you got them, you got to keep them. So treat them good and try not to ask my coaches to do anything that I wouldn't do as far as tasks. I'll empty the trash and sweep the range and I don't kind of slough that off on the new guy. Yeah. Kind of set the expectation that we're all here together. This is our class. We've had a lot of coaches who stuck around for a while. That's all good. If something comes to mind, I'll let you know.

Robin: So Lynn Vandwater, everybody. And from one speed freak, adrenal junkie to the lot of you that are sport touring motorcycle enthusiasts. Yeah, it's kind of a family. There are cruiser riders, there are sport bike riders, there are sport touring riders, there are ADV riders. But when it comes to the MSF curriculum, we come together and we bond over it. And it's better than a lot of us. Again, Lynn Vandwater, or Zen on two wheels, as I call her, is a rider coach trainer, meaning if you're in New York and you'd like to become a rider coach, you can reach out to her by visiting GoMotorcycling.net. On to Jeff Alford. This is the interview I wasn't sure I'd be able to land and then was an hour late to because I had family in town. Jeff Alford is tough. He's capable of being calm and gentle and really is by default, but he's tough. The down and upshifting he's had to do to keep his cool around the stupidity, well, even I've provided. It's a testament to his character. He's a patient, solid instructor who made him stronger and more efficient. He's the guy you want to go to if you happen to be in the Austin, Texas area. Jeff is one of the administrators over at TotalRider.com, where they have multiple training sites around the greater Austin area. Here's what you're up against. There are people like me who sought you out and said, hi, may I please coach for you? To which you said, absolutely not. And I said, well, what if I keep annoying you? And you said, well, let's go through some motions. And there was a long list of steps that I had to take, but I wanted it. Now, this doesn't change the fact that I know how badly every state desperately needs coaches. And there are people out there that would make great coaches. They have no interest in approaching you for permission to do so. You want them. If that is the podium you're standing on, get them to consider becoming a rider coach. What do you want to say?

Jeff: When you take one of these courses, you decided that you wanted to become a motorcyclist and you have already made the right decision. These people are already smarter than most because they've already decided that they're going to take the class. Most people that I come across, they buy the bike and then they figure out how to use it. They let their friend tell them, don't get the beginner bike because that's for beginners. Yeah, because that makes sense, right? So you get the intermediate bike, but that costs money. So now I need to know how to operate this thing. No skills. How you operate a plane is you buy the plane first, then you try to fly it without the FAA's permission. You worry about the license stuff after you get caught because that's basically the way we're approaching this. So people who've taken the class first to see if they're going to get into this and to see if it's worth the investment, those are the people I'm looking for. They're already ahead of the game. So then I approach them and say, hey, would you like to be a coach? I said, okay, yeah. Oh, they all love it. They all love the idea. Then the reality hits. Then the bureaucracy hits. Then the cost hits. And I've lost almost everyone. There's a few that are still in there, but these people are looking for a job and a job I don't have because I need you to spend a bunch of money and then I need you to be very, very patient with the state and the other agencies that regulate this industry. Once that's over, then the learning begins. But you've already taken a 10 day class and you think you pretty much got it. The problem is it doesn't matter what you know. Now begins the hard part of learning how other people learn the kind of people I'm looking for. That's the kind of coaches that I'm actually seeking out. And they're extremely rare. And the ones that I do find are not weather tolerant. So you get the ones, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. You're like, please, what do you mean a double? What's a double? I mean, there's a class after this class, like tomorrow, like no later today. I'm going to die, man. I'm not prepared for this. I like alcohol. I drink things other than water. So I need a cactus and a camel hybrid here to hold the water you do get because you don't get very many breaks. That's basically what we're up against in a roundabout way. And not only that, I have a very limited ability to hire people because they have to be trained by this one particular organization and then be approved by a separate organization so that they can come aboard. They're making this impossible. Plus, they've only held one class in the last year, which six people didn't show up to out of 12. And only six passed. So got a pretty good pass rate. But the ones who did pass were all just held over from the last couple of classes. There's only one location. I'm kind of fortunate. I'll count my blessings where I can, that there are people available and local because the course is all held in College Station, Texas. It's all held out in Bryan over by the Texas A&M University. Now, here's the problem with that. I don't know what you know about Aggies and how much they love their sports, but an average hotel room will go from dozens of dollars a night to hundreds of dollars a night, depending on what sport is being played home or away. These fans are diehards. These alumni are diehards. We're talking about a school whose students stand the entire game. They know every cheer. They know every chant. And that doesn't go away when you graduate. So these people come back to these games. This isn't much of a real town to speak of. It's not like a town with a college in it. This town only exists because of this school. It's the only veterinary school in the entire state of Texas. So it's a big deal. And they're diehards. That adds to the cost. Cost I can't account for, that I have to ask you to bear. Because if you don't pass and I've paid, I've sponsored you to go through a course that I've got nothing out of. And I'm a small business owner. So what am I going to do? I'm fortunate enough or unfortunate enough, as you may see it, that I have multiple locations across Central Texas. I have multiple ranges at other locations. I have the jobs. I have the time. I have the need and the wherewithal to train the people that do come across. Those people I'm asking a whole lot out of. And that's the biggest problem I have. So why should you become a coach? Well, I promise you this. You're not going to get rich. You are going to get a tan, several shades of burned. No matter how many sunscreens you wear, no matter how many floppy hats you put on, you're going to get burned. You're never going to drink enough water. You're never going to have any free time. You're going to earn plenty of money, but you're never going to be able to spend it because you're going to spend all your weekends with me. That's the thing. I need more than just people with a ton of time on their hands. Most are retirees. I don't have any young industry professionals as coaches. The few that I do get have to focus on their actual profession because this job doesn't offer benefits. This is not an actual job. This is a contract position by the end of the day.

Robin: That age group, not that older coaches are bad. It's just younger coaches would help. There's a little bit more of a long range there. At this point, what do we itemize now? They need to buy in for the training. They need to buy in for the materials. They need to understand that this is not a lucrative situation, but there's money in it somewhere and that in order to train, there's a variable price on their lodging while they're going through the motions in a state that is watching them under a microscope. I remember this. Now the outfit that is in operation over it has changed. They've got their own policies in place.

Jeff: One thing I do like about Texas is Texas spends exactly no dollars and no cents every year of taxpayer money on motorcycle safety. Motorcyclists pay for motorcycles. When you have an M endorsement and your license is in Texas, you pay an extra $8. The last time I looked, don't quote me. These numbers are old as I am. You pay an extra $8. A couple of those dollars goes to the state. Thank you. Uncle Sam got his, right? Or Sam Houston, whoever you want to call Sam. They got theirs. Then the rest of that money goes to the Motorcycle Safety Fund, which is where we pull the money to fund all this research and development through TX, TXI, and the other people that we put all this stuff through, through the Safety Coalition. That all gets paid for through the Motorcycle Safety Fund. But that is something that is state regulated. Now, if you've ever tried to spend state money or government's money, it's impossible. There is a process in place that prohibits every cent you spend. So it literally takes an act of your state legislature to spend money. And last time that I went and did the accountability, there are only a handful of state representatives who ride. So it's not that we don't matter. It's just that we don't matter. If you look at the freeway and you watch it for an hour, how many motorcycles go down it?

Robin: Well, I see them. But compared to cars now, it's got to be at least like 20 to one.

Jeff: Right. We're getting smoked. Unless you're talking about Interstate 4 going down through Florida or something where there's just a motorcycle rally.

Jason: Yeah.

Jeff: Right. During Daytona Bike Week or something, right? Then you're going to see, or here in Austin during MotoGP or pick a motorcycle rally, right? So you've got all these things where they become very prevalent. But then we're more of a nuisance. We get that group think, we get that mentality. And individual riders, what was it? The old men in black quote, right? The person is smart, but people are stupid. Get them together and all of a sudden group think takes over and nothing great happens. We can't spend the state's money that we paid for, right? We've been putting this money away since 1984 and it's hard to spend. You remember you were here when we decided to spend the state's money and they bought over 400 Kawasaki Z Pros and 80 Honda Grumps. And they recalled a bunch of them. And then they found out that you can't sell those bikes. All the ones that they took back, all the Eliminators, all the GZs, all the bikes that they took back, they couldn't sell them because they didn't go through the proper channels to sell them. You can't buy or sell anything for the state unless it goes through the comptroller's office and then through blah, blah, blah. So then those are just sitting there uselessly? They were. And then they found out they can't even sit there uselessly because what if they leak? They had them parked on the grass and that's a government thing. You can't park things on the grass. Jeff, did they crush them? Did they crush them? So long story short, they sold them. They sent them through a Lone Star Auctions and they sold them. And the funny thing is I drive a ready mix truck for a living. And the other day I was going up the hill on 360 headed back towards 620. It's a steep hill and a mixer truck fully loaded is barely making it. So I'm doing like 30 miles an hour up this hill. It's like 55. So I'm a hazard into myself, but I also weigh close to 80,000 pounds. So if you hit me, you're going to get hurt, not me. Funny thing, I saw a Total Rider sticker on the back of this bike and it was an old Kawasaki Eliminator, old 125, just killing it. Dude in full gear. I mean, all of it, a hundred plus degree temp. And that bike just ain't making it up the hill. He's on the shoulder, probably in second gear. It's just screaming like a student who can't find the clutch. So they're still around. And those things went for stupid money. I don't even understand. Most of those bikes were, they weren't worth the frame, right? They weren't worth anything. They were, think about buying a used rental car that was used in stunt show. Yes. This is how badly, when we say the bike is ready to go away, imagine how bad that is. How many clutch dumps, how many peg replacements, how many, these bikes don't even have turn signals. They all broke off.

Robin: The frame's riding diagonally up the road, front wheels to the right, rear wheels to the left. Okay. See if you could tie this, reel us back in here. It's your show, reel it back in.

Jeff: Good news. We got with TxDOT, Texas Department of Transportation. Okay. They've got the money to spend on research. And we said, there's a coach problem. And TxDOT said, how can we help? Because they own all the amber alert boards and the silver alert, blue alert, and all the alert boards, right? So you see them anytime you drive anywhere, this alert system exists. They own the signs on the side of the road. They can say, you know, watch for motorcycles, look twice. And there's all these campaigns that they put out there. And they're the ones with the share the road campaign. So we said, okay, this is what we got to do. We set it all up and TxDOT came through in a big way. And they said, this is what we can do. We're going to send a mailer out to everyone who's gotten a license in the last X number of years and ask them if they want to be a coach. And there was a huge response. It was very positive.

Robin: Do you have those information? Have you saved it? Does somebody have access to it as a database? Not for commercial purposes, but in case they want to reach out again?

Jeff: I do. Yes. If you signed up through my company, then I have your information, right? I have your booking information that you did, at least when it was current, when you took the class. Nice. And I could reach out that way. We could do a big mailer and send it out and say, hey, but the thing is you got to be a licensed rider for two years before you can even apply to be a coach. This is the Texas thing, right? 50 states, 50 sets of rules. And to set all this up, TxDOT came through and said, hey, how about we give you some flyers that you hand out in class that the students can hold on to for two years and then reach out to you? And they said, well, we know this doesn't help you right now, but it may help you in the future. That's kind of where we're at right now. We're trying to make a long-term solution. And they've given me flyers and pamphlets and take ones, as we like to call them, to get people interested in this. But there's a huge amount left to be asked. There's a ton of rules that have to be followed. There's a ton of time and energy and money that has to be spent on their behalf. So just like you said, hell, you were certified up above the Great White North. We were way up there. Anything above Dallas is considered the Great White North, by the way. Absolutely. A bunch of yanks. Because if it snows, it's cold. So here it doesn't snow, so therefore we're good. That's all too crazy that we're seeking people that are two years out when we have a crisis right now. To preach to your audience is kind of, I need to turn around and talk back to the pews instead of at the choir here, because if they're listening to The Writing Obsession, they're too far gone.

Robin: If their part was at the ultra-slick, badass... Super-slick, ultra-badass, motorcycle mega-possible, incredible power.

Jeff: There you go. You're a member. Oh, yeah, a lot. They're too far gone, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually who this is for. People that have been riding for a little bit. Because who the hell wants a college professor that just graduated college?

Robin: Do you know anything? Do they have the experience to make judgment calls and such things as that? So then this is something I didn't do with any of the other interviews. I tried to do something unique with everybody. But in your cases, if you had to nail it down to three to five words that would best describe the candidate, five adjectives, what are their five main traits for Texas specifically? Your guy or gal?

Jeff: Patience, endurance, love, fidelity, because I value loyalty over most things, and friendliness. Biggest one being patience. Students are going to frustrate you. But they're not trying to. They're learning. We've all had that college professor, that teacher that doesn't understand what you don't understand. We've all had that one person that was trying to teach us something and they just did it for us. You're not a coach, man. Now those people are probably right under Rossi as far as motorcycle technology and the capability. And I've had those coaches. They can be taught, but man, is it ever an uphill battle because I'm basically trying to humble them constantly. Just because you're a badass rider doesn't make you a badass coach. This has been said many times. And that's not saying those who can't should teach, but I need that rare combination of street smarts and book smarts. Recognizing how other people learn is huge. Adult learning education, adult-centered education, how to talk to people not like pets, because God, I've been around those people too. You did such a good job. You are so good. Oh, who found first gear? I just want to curl up in a ball. How dare you speak to adults this way? Baby talk. It drives me nuts. I didn't baby talk my own kid. And now she's belligerent in the other room. So it's just the way it goes.

Robin: They do sometimes have more fun when you give them all kinds of hell. Oh, absolutely. Oh, wholeheartedly. When I say thumb key valve and they're trying to find neutral, I just walk at them. Thumb key valve. Did you hear neutral? Did you hear neutral? There's no neutral and thumb key valve, is there? And they start panicking, trying to find neutral. And then they start laughing and be like, dang it. Thumb. Key. Valve.

Jeff: That's one of the biggest things that you get with experienced writers is you get someone who wants to show them the way they learned. Yeah, but that's great, but that's not the way they learn. Dave Metcalf, the guy I want to be when I grow up, said it's okay to deviate. As long as you are TFC, you read the full cards is the politically correct way to say it. If you read it all the way through and they don't understand, then it's okay to go and explain to them a little bit more in depth, but come back. Do not stay on the deviation because just because they didn't understand this time doesn't mean they won't understand next time.

Robin: you in the right direction. Again, his website is TotalWriter.com. Moving right along. I wanted to mix these interviews up a lot. I managed to make this entire episode boy, girl, boy, girl, boy. But one of the things I wanted to do is interview somebody I don't know. Somebody with the energy and excitement to inspire you to consider doing this. Now, her name, as I see it on social media, is far too elegant for me to let myself mangle, so I'm just going to go with Piper. That's how we were introduced. That's how it stays. She runs Clutch Motorcycle School in Colorado. There are people out there that might make good writer coaches and they are not approaching you. They're not approaching me. They're not approaching Scott or Jason or Lynn or anybody else I might interview. They are out there and they are not setting you up to give them the dissertations. Oh, really? Do you want to be a writer coach? Well, okay, here's what you're going to have to do. This is more about, hey, look, we need you guys on that platform, on that podium. What do you want to say?

Armene: One of the things I would say to begin with is I think people don't approach us because they think they need a lot more time in the saddle. Like they have to get good enough to be a coach. And quite honestly, I think before I became a coach, I was just a mediocre motorcyclist. Truly, I was okay. But when I became a coach, I became a really great rider. And so I would say, don't wait. It's kind of like you hear people say, we're going to have kids when we have money.

Robin: Yeah.

Armene: Or when we're more settled or whatever. And I'm like, that time will never come. It's the same thing with becoming a writer coach. If you wait until you think that you're up to par, you might miss a really awesome opportunity because being a coach makes you a better writer.

Robin: Nice. And what kind of people do you find in your state, in that environment? What is your perfect candidate? There you go.

Armene: Someone who wants to share their passion with other people. The thing that I love about the coaches that we have currently at Clutch, they're all totally different humans. My range manager, Julie, is in her sixties. She's a grandmother of nine. She has four adult children. She grew up in Alaska. She rides this big old Harley and she has this cute little dog that she puts on the back of her bike. His name is Bruno Mars. He's a little brown shih tzu. But she loves working with people and sharing that passion. And then we have a couple of guys who are these BMW riders who are engineers. They love crunching numbers. And when they try to tell me about what they do outside of being a writer coach, I can't follow. I have no idea what they do and they're sciencey and geeky and nerdy and sweet. And the common denominator between all of us is that we love sharing what we do with other people. Where you come from, your background, male, female, religion doesn't matter. That's the cool thing about riding motorcycles. That stuff doesn't matter. What brings us together is that we all love riding motorcycles. So the perfect candidate is somebody who just wants to share that with other people. Sometimes the best writer coaches are the ones who don't have a ton of experience because, as you know, as we ride and as we ride with other people, sometimes we gain some not so great habits that maybe we don't even know aren't good things or aren't best practice. And so when you are kind of fresh out of the VRC, you don't have any bad habits yet that you can bring to the table. You are just this whiteboard of someone waiting to learn all the right ways to do it. It has changed my life. Listen, I have five children and the idea of teaching other people to do things, I wanted nothing to do with it. When I became a rider coach, I didn't actually want to become a rider coach. I was buying a business. I was buying a motorcycle school and I thought, well, I should probably kind of know what this looks like. Little did I know that it was going to totally change my life and the people that you meet and the experiences that you have. I had no idea how emotionally charged motorcycle riding is. You get to meet and hear the most incredible stories from people and you connect with them. I've connected with people who now moved out of the state and they will call me and say, hey, anytime you're here, I want you to come by and say hi. I'll actually lend you my bike. It just connects us in this really awesome way. Not that becoming a celebrity is something to strive for, but I was walking down the street and I swear, I felt like I was a rock star. Someone came running up to me, oh my God, Piper, do you remember me? I was in your VRC two years ago and that's my bike. I went on this really cool adventure and they tell you about all these really awesome things. It's a gift that you give people and you think that you're doing them a solid, but the benefits that you get back are exponential. They come back to you tenfold.

Robin: That is wicked. Let's look at the flip side of that. There's the new rider who, hey, it's okay if you want to do this, if you have the responsibility. What about the person who's not ready to age out, but they're definitely seasoned. They've already accepted plenty of responsibility in their time. They have life experience. What about that side of the coin? Any of those guys that aren't doing this yet, what do you want to say to them?

Armene: As long as you're willing to learn some new things and maybe adjust the way that you've been thinking about certain things, then yes, absolutely. Most of my coaches had 20 years under their belt before they became rider coaches. They bring this really rich understanding of motorcycling that took me a long time to catch up to. They do have life experiences and many, many miles under their belt. I'm sure you know Walt Fulton Jr. III.

Robin: If that name didn't stick out, I wouldn't. I do not. He was in the movie On Any Sunday. He's a friend of mine. Hold on. Wait, wait. Pause, pause. I can hear the music. That's so non-offending 70s music. Yeah, go on. Sorry.

Armene: He was in that movie. He's been riding since he was three, four years old. He's now in his 70s. I asked him the other day if he would do the self-assessment chart for me. What's your skill? What's your knowledge? What's your this? What's your that? He said, sure, I'll do it, but you do it first. I write my emotional commitment to safe riding and all these things. The two that just whumped me were his skill level. He gave himself a two. He has over three and a half million miles under his belt. I've seen him out ride people half his age. He's the guy who could ride with his eyes shut and his hands tied behind his back. He's still out there winning races, beating the pants off people half his age. He gave himself a two. Boy, did that do something for me because I think I gave myself a seven. It was some humble pie. I realized I had so much to learn. He really gently showed me that there's always something. He said, every time you coach this, you learn something new. I think that is so neat that you can learn something new every single time you interact with new people. Something that maybe you didn't even think of shows up and surprises you. I can't stand the boring day in, day out mundane stuff. That is not the BRC or the BRC2. There's something wild and exciting that happens at every class. My favorite is running the BRC2 because a few things happen. One, I check them in and it's usually a bunch of seasoned riders who look at me and they're like, you're signing me in, but where's my coach? I'm your coach. Then I do that first exercise, which weeds out the people who actually know how to ride, the people who started three and a half minutes ago. Their eyes get so big and they all look freaked out. At the end of that class, I always ask them, what surprised you about this class? I know a lot of them come in, they're like, well, I just wanted to test out, but I couldn't find anybody, so I guess I'll deal with this. They all say that they learned something so valuable. That's a cool gift to give somebody too, a little bit of humility without embarrassing them on purpose. It's that self-assessment piece of, oh, I thought I knew more than I did, but I have been riding for 45 years and never turned my head in the corner.

Robin: Look through that corner to the left, look through that corner to the right. It doesn't matter which way you turn your head. If you're in Colorado, you might find that one of Piper's other successful businesses is in your field of view. Being a mother of between five and 20 some odd kids, it's no surprise that they're doing well. Visit ClutchMotorcycleSchool.com to find out more about the classes she offers. Okay, okay, okay, okay. This next guy, he's probably the reason I've had to rerecord my intros over and over and over and over and over. See, the first time I reached out about becoming a rider coach was at Northern Illinois University near Chicago. I wanted to become a rider coach so that I could say that I was a rider coach. So that I could claim the authority and get a badge tattooed on my face that says I'm the one who knows all. I'm lucky the person who trained me was able to subtly introduce the fact that that's not how it works. Scott Haas has a lot on his desk. Still, he knows to step away and remind us all that it's a calm, fun learning environment. He's the guy that can help a would-be rider coach carve away their ego. Now, unlike a humble, polite person, asking a guy like me to carve away their ego might take a stick of dynamite. But I did it because I could feel where this was going. Even if I was holding on to the idea of the rider coach title, holding on to something was enough to get me through it. In doing so, I learned how I could better provide something to the motorcycling community. And that's okay. Know thyself, right? Being a rider coach, you will know thyself. So if you're interested in becoming an Illinois rider coach, listen up. Here I am with the man who trained me how to be a Motorcycle Safety Foundation rider coach. So I know firsthand what it was like to go to you and say, somebody told me about this. I would like to do it. And for you to receive that information with, okay, well, here is what's expected of you. Prepare to go through all the hiccups. This is the complete polar opposite of that. What do you want to say to riders out there everywhere who might really be great at this? What would you like to say to them?

Scott: That's a really good question. The first thing that somebody needs to have in order to want to become a rider coach is the motivation to want to become a rider coach, whatever that motivation is. I think most people get into it not knowing that, hey, you actually get paid to do it. They are going the altruistic route. Hey, I want to give back. I've taught friends and family how to ride, and I want to do more than that. I think that might be one of the initial places that people are coming from. For me, my experience getting into it was a total fluke. I was a student down at SIU, and I was looking for my spring courses way back then. It was an actual paper catalog, right? And I just happened to glance over in a column, and it said motorcycle instructor training. I said, wow, that sounds interesting. That's basically how I got where I am, an absolute fluke. It's not the norm by any means. Like I said, I think most people get into it because they've helped friends and family learn to ride a motorcycle. They've been riding for a number of years and want to give back to the community. I think anybody who pays attention to the broader picture of motorcycling in the U.S. is that demographics are going up. Every year, the average age of riders is probably increasing. Young people aren't coming into the sport as much as it had been in the past. So that initial motivation is one of the things that I look for. For example, this year, our assistant coordinators, Mel Bolt and Nicole Errett, had done a tremendous amount of outreach to solicit people for the Rider Coach Prep. I don't know the exact number of people that they emailed, but I'm guessing it was probably in the neighborhood of 200 to 300 people. And we got some initial response from maybe a quarter to a third of that. Not a huge response, which I mean, it's better than most survey result responses, but still, you know, we would have hoped for more. That was just the initial response to that email. The people who followed up on that through each step of the process was less and less each time to where our first Rider Coach Prep this year, we started with seven candidates. And the last one we ran, which we just finished this past weekend, started with six. The second one was actually held in the center, basically, of our region. And we couldn't get more than six people to actually commit to coming in the door to become a Rider Coach. Now, you know, I will offset that by saying there were some issues that we ended up having to change the schedule for that about a month before it started due to circumstances beyond our control. But it's been a real struggle, especially over the past couple of years, to get people interested. We didn't do any Rider Coach Preps in 2020, for obvious reasons. 2021, we ran three of them. And between the three of them, we graduated with a total of 14 candidates when we could have had a total of 36. Starting those preps in 2021 was maybe 20 people. So it's just been a real struggle getting people interested for whatever reason. Obviously, we're still working on coming out of the pandemic. At this point, I think most people are just with the understanding that it's something we're going to live with. So let's start moving back to living. But it's probably also changed a lot of people's perspectives on what's necessary in their lives. We saw this kind of back in 2008 when there was that big housing bubble explosion. The economy started to tank a bit. People were re-evaluating things. Putting food on the table and keeping a roof over the head was a little bit more important than going out and learning to ride a motorcycle. So the demand for instructors didn't drop, but we had fewer people interested. And some of them were probably more likely to be motivated by some extra income, which is fine as long as they meet those other skills and requirements and traits that make somebody a good rider coach. Hey, who doesn't like the extra money from being a rider coach? It's not too bad. But the recruitment has been a real struggle. And it's not just us. This is a national issue. MSF just had a webinar last week, I think, talking about recruitment and retention. And they had a panel discussion. There were a few good nuggets that came out of that as far as retention. But with recruitment, it's not like you can just drop an ad in Crane's Business Weekly or Monster or whatever website, because then you're going to get a whole lot of people who are applying who've never ridden a motorcycle before. And that one there is kind of a hard pre-rec. So you have to recruit from within the community. One of the big ways that we have recruited, aside from just emailing out former students, is recruiting out of classes. That's where I've done recruiting out of myself, seeing the student in the class. Because it's not just, are they a good rider? But are they a good student? Do they listen to the coaching? Do they respond well? What's their general demeanor like? I've seen some people who have the awesome soft skills, and they ride decently as well. So after class, I've said, hey, have you ever thought about this? I don't push it hard. I just plant a little seed in their head, and it will either grow or it won't. Chances are at some point down the road, two or three years, they'll get an email from us saying, hey, we were looking back through our records and saw that you took a class. You did really well in the class. Here's some more information. We're still looking for more rider coaches. Communicate with us. Like I said, for this year, out of all of the people that we reached out to, we didn't get a huge response. And that follow through to the end of actually walking in the door for the RCP, far smaller than what we'd hoped. Now, what we lacked in quantity, we definitely made up for in quality. So that was really good. I'd mentioned before, we just finished a rider coach prep this weekend. We went into student teaching with just two candidates. And out of all of the preps I've ever done, and I've been a rider coach trainer since 2006, these two candidates had the broadest depth of understanding that I have seen out of two candidates. They were awesome. All along the way, they asked the right questions. They had the right answers when we asked questions. So when we went into this past weekend, they did a fantastic job. Not just with conducting the exercise, but also with coaching the students to help them improve. Because that's the end goal. That's the outcome. How well did the students learn during their BRC? We're always going to be looking for more coaches. That's a never-ending thing. With what we're facing right now with the suspension of training at Harper College, the region may move to another institution. And if that happens, I expect there's going to be some loss. There are going to be some people that say, I've done this before, going from NIU to Harper, and now possibly from Harper to another institution. And they're just going to say, I've been doing this for 10 years now, or whatever, and it's time to hang up the hat.

Robin: Well, for anybody listening, we're talking about a state-funded program that has moved mass numbers of coaches from one establishment to another. So, I mean, there aren't a lot of states that do that. So for anybody listening, yes, there are states that do provide this as a public service, and we still treat it as customer service. In the end, as rider coaches, it's all about the riders who are signed up to take the class. It's not free if it's paid for by tax dollars. But sorry, please continue.

Scott: That's absolutely right. Being a state program, we operate a little bit differently. For example, Harper College is probably the single largest REERP in the country, Rider Education Recognition Program. A lot of states may have a state program, but the actual training is being done by individual entities, using California as an example. Back in the day when MSF ran the state, they were training 50,000 students, but those 50,000 students might have been trained by 500 different individual programs, so that each program was maybe doing 100, 200, 300 students. Harper College, we've got 15 training sites, 8 ranges. Our best year, we trained just under 8,000 students, which was more students for just Harper College than like 35 other states trained. I think the last numbers I saw was from 2016.

Robin: A lot of those ranges are full-size ranges. You need coaches to fill them and all of their schedules. You might feel me steering this a little bit. I also want to make sure that you get to cover ground and hopefully this helps for everybody. I'm trying to help as many as I can. You got all these ranges, a schedule to keep, and you need good, solid, responsible minds to coach these courses. Sometimes that's a struggle when they are approaching you. It's one thing. What would you like to say to people that might be great for this out there that are listening right now? What do you want to tell them about what it entails and let them know so that they might actually reach out for this years to come?

Scott: Illinois is just a little bit different in a lot of respects from a lot of other states. According to MSF facts for Rider Coach Prep, it's 56 hours included in the student teaching phase, which is a full BRC. We run our preps for a total of 76 hours of contact time with the Rider Coach candidate. During that time, they'll go through several phases, one of which will simply be becoming familiar with the curriculum. Then you'll do a lot of peer teaching where the candidates will be conducting the exercise for the other Rider Coach candidates. Then that culminates with actually running a class with real, live, novice students, basically people off the street. Sometimes candidates think we load the classes, but no, it's just the luck of the draw, whoever registers for that class. If you're even remotely interested, contact your local provider. Ask them what their steps are for becoming a Rider Coach, and they'll be more than happy to talk with you. Some of the skills, though, that you should evaluate yourself on, not just are you a good rider, because so what? I've known a lot of people who were good riders who did not make good Rider Coaches because riding a motorcycle, it's all motor skills. It's practice. You go out and practice U-turns eight hours a day, you're going to get really good at them. The soft skills, I think, are a bit more important. Having a desire to help people, you have to be able to see through your students' eyes. As Robin said, it's not just teaching people how to ride a motorcycle or helping them learn to ride a motorcycle, however you want to phrase that. It's customer service. Yes, we help people learn how to ride a motorcycle, but it's all about customer service. A big part of that is empathy, being able to meet your students where they are, help them to the best of their abilities, because any coaching, regardless of what it is, being a Rider Coach, soccer, softball, swimming, a life coach, when you boil away what you're training them in, all you're really trying to do is help them do it better. That's all any coaching is. People who have prior coaching experience, they've already got a leg up on that understanding. Then it's just teaching them how to coach someone to ride a motorcycle better. It's not just standing in a parking lot watching them ride. You have to give them feedback on what they're doing, especially when they need to improve what they're doing. Watching a student who's riding around and constantly grabbing the front brake or being abrupt with it, you have to be able to coach them and tell them how to correct that. Because grabbing the front brake is bad. Some of your listeners have probably realized that when they've over-applied or reacted versus responded to an emergency situation and locked the front wheel. Gamers would call that button mashing. Yeah, button mashing. That would be a good one. I only do that when I get frustrated and beat the keyboard. But it's the soft skills that really make someone a good rider coach. Because you can practice the demos and get better at riding the demos. But the soft skills, you either have them or you don't. Teaching empathy is not something that I'm capable of. I can teach someone how to coach. I can teach someone how to observe their students and analyze and coach and reinforce them. But yeah, if they don't have empathy, there's nothing I can do about that.

Robin: And if somebody in Illinois wanted to apply to become a coach in your area, where would you point them?

Scott: Well, I would probably point them to, I don't know, right now. Actually, I'm sorry. Right now, yeah, with our given situation, it's kind of tough. They can still reach out to us at motorcycles at harpercollege.edu. And what we're going to do, if the program does move to another institution, we will pass along all of our current rider coach information. Anybody who has shown interest in becoming a rider coach, we're going to pass that information along as well. Because regardless of whether I hopefully go with the program, if it moves, we want to help that program succeed. Because rider education is important. And I'm really hoping that I will go with the program and would be hired by that new institution. But there's no guarantee. We're not going to not cooperate and hamstring them in any way, because that's not productive.

Robin: Nice. Well, okay. So if you'll let me, I'm going to call that time. Scott Haas, thank you so much for doing this for us.

Scott: Hey, Robin, I really appreciate the time that you've given me for this. You get it.

Robin: Thank you, sir. All fair. Yeah, Scott, you know what? We get it. I trust our listeners out there have paid mind to what these five administrators have had to say. And I want to thank all of them for being willing to do this. Their time is valuable, and I'm just one of many rider coaches they're in charge of. So wrapping this up, outreach is the MSF's elephant in the room. If I'm playing this right, maybe it'll help. I guess what's happening here is I'm reaching out to you, the listener. If you consider yourself a competent rider with good people skills, patience, the will to assess a student rider's actions without judgment, if you're open to relaying a pre-written curriculum on the terms of that curriculum, sign up to become an MSF rider coach. We need you. Just leave your ego at the door. For TRO.Bike, I'm Robin Dean. Safe travels, everyone.